Premise(s)

[Geoff]

I noticed a sign beside the entrance door to a coffee bar today. It said:

This premises is constantly under camera surveillance

Is premises, when referring to just one coffee bar, singular or plural? What would sound right to me would be:

These premises are constantly under camera surveillance

even though we are still referring to the one coffee bar.

The Macquarie Dictionary says:

premise n. 1. (pl.) a house or building with the grounds, etc., belonging to it.

So, is the sign correct?

My referring to the dictionary made me wonder about this additional definition under premise:

2. Also, premiss. A proposition (or one of several) from which a conclusion is drawn. 3. a basis for reasoned argument.

I always thought a logical proposition was a premise. Am I wrong?

[Dave M]

Hi Geoff

The logical proposition we start with is indeed usually a premise (but in that meaning is also written premiss).

It's the same root that's used for buildings. In a lease, the parties involved are traditionally stated near the beginning, and so is the property involved: it is put/sent (mise) earlier (pre), so "premise" means "as earlier stated" in both cases.

For buildings and land, it's nearly always "these premises" (even for one parcel/building), but can technically be said as "this premise".

I've seen "this premises" quite a bit, and I reckon it's because "premises" sounds right through familiarity, and "this" seems logical because the author is only referring to one place.

[Verbivore]

Although I acknowledge other styles and usages, for me it is always thus:
* my office occupies these premises, and
* my conclusion is based upon this premiss.

[Alan Palmer]

I'm with Geoff on these two.

I'd always refer to these premises and a logical proposition is a premise. I've never come across premiss before.

[Verbivore]

SOED has premiss - as both noun and verb.

[Geoff]

Your responses so far seem to reflect what you're familiar with. I'm confused by the Macquarie Dictionary's first definition. It says premise is plural. Is that because it encompasses building and land? What then is/are premises we all seem to be familiar with: more than one house and land package?

Is the sign I mentioned correct or incorrect? It seems to be incorrect according to the dictionary.

Dave,

In a lease, the parties involved are traditionally stated near the beginning, and so is the property involved: it is put/sent (mise) earlier (pre), so "premise" means "as earlier stated" in both cases.

What is the origin of your mise = put/sent? The Latin I remember from school is very limited, but isn't mitto, mittere the verb to send? Mise might be part of the conjugation of that verb, I simply don't know, but I might have expected a 't' or two in the parts of the verb. Perhaps you're not quoting a Latin verb at all.

[Verbivore]

Jul 29, 2008 12:13:15 GMT Geoff said:

Your responses so far seem to reflect what you're familiar with. I'm confused by the Macquarie Dictionary's first definition. It says premise is plural. [...]

The SOED indicates that premise - when used to describe property, is only used in the plural.

Etymology (SOED): LME. Old & mod. French prémisse from medieval Latin praemissa use as noun (sc. propositio) of fem. sing. and neut. pl. pa. pple of Latin praemittere send or set before, from prae PRE- + mittere put, send.

Definition/s (SOED):

I LOGIC 1 A previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion; spec. in pl., the two propositions in a syllogism. LME [Usual form for this meaning = premiss.]

II Now only in pl. 5 A house or building with its grounds etc. Also, (a part of) a building housing a business etc. E17

Definition/s (Macquarie):

2. (plural) a. the property forming the subject of a conveyance. b. a tract of land. c. a house or building with the grounds, etc., belonging to it.

4. Also premiss. Logic a proposition (or one of several) from which a conclusion is drawn.

Although both dictionaries allow premise as an alternative for premiss (with Macquarie allowing it perhaps a little more), they do both indicate that premise, when used to mean property, is only to be used in the plural; therefore, I would argue that this premises is wrong: a plural-form noun takes a plural-form article = these premises, even when it refers to only one property.

[Dave M]

Geoff

I quoted "mise", simply because that's the form in which it appears in the word "premise". It's also in exactly that form in French phrases such as mise en place, mise en scene and the old English noun mise meaning a payment to a Lord of the Marches. It's also in a similar form in words like mission, missile and missive. All originally from the Latin mittere, as you say - and even there, it would get esses in the middle in forms such as the nouns missivus (a sent thing, ie letter) and missio Dei (the "sending" of God).

[Paul Doherty]

Like scissors and trousers, I guess. You do hear tailors say "that's a lovely trouser, sir", and sometimes "just snip it with a scissor".

[Tone]

'Twould seem that your building usage is a plurale tantum.
(Likewize as scissors and trousers are pluralia tantum.)

But I think we could fall back on the "idiomatic" for "this premises".

Tone

[Paul Doherty]

Just to be clear, I regard premises as plural and would also, reluctantly accept the singular premise as a term of trade.

But "This premises is ..." falls between two stools, and I'd regard it as incorrect for standard English. "These premises are ..." or (if they must) "This premise is ...", but not a bit of both!

[Pete]

Jul 29, 2008 12:13:15 GMT Geoff said:

Your responses so far seem to reflect what you're familiar with. I'm confused by the Macquarie Dictionary's first definition. It says premise is plural. Is that because it encompasses building and land? What then is/are premises we all seem to be familiar with: more than one house and land package?

Most of your points have been covered by others, Geoff. On this last point, I think that premise(s) is/are only buildings, not the land on which they stand.

Under English (and Welsh, I think) land law, the building is always owned by the owner of the land. Thus, you can only own a building outright (i.e. freehold) if you also own the underlying land. So they do come as a 'package', but not in such a way as to justify the plural 'premises' as being the land plus the building.

[Dave M]

My understanding, Pete, is that premises can also be land. If someone should ask you to "leave the premises", he'll expect you to go out of the garden gate, not just the front door!

[Pete]

Jul 29, 2008 21:23:05 GMT Dave M said:

My understanding, Pete, is that premises can also be land. If someone should ask you to "leave the premises", he'll expect you to go out of the garden gate, not just the front door!

It certainly fits the dictionary definitions that have been given, so I accept it. But it doesn't quite feel right. Still, that's what learning new stuff is all about.