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Post by Dave on Jun 30, 2008 7:30:47 GMT
Does the choice of and or or for the conjunction make a difference in any of your thinking? I was thinking more along the lines of the compound object with part being singular and part being plural, and your proximity idea
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 30, 2008 11:12:25 GMT
Interesting, all of it; but I have to once again ask, should seems be seem in the following sentence? Trouble is, there seems to be as many exceptions as not: lecturer, adaptor. It's the same issue, isn't it? The verb is seem, the subject is there. Is there singular or plural? I'd argue that there is a dummy subject standing for something like "as many exceptions as not exist" (that's what seems) and it's pretty hard to say it is either singular or plural. Tricky word, there.
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 30, 2008 11:17:58 GMT
I was thinking more along the lines of the compound object with part being singular and part being plural, and your proximity idea - There is one or two bananas in it. - There are one or two bananas in it. - There's one or two things I'd like to discuss with you. - There are one or two things I'd like to discuss with you. I'd go for the second in each case, but only because "one or two" is conventionally plural (because it really means "a few" -- if there was only one thing we'd normally say so) as in: - One or two of them were angry.
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Post by Twoddle on Jun 30, 2008 15:47:15 GMT
Paul:
What I meant there was that "There is a blackbird and two thrushes on the lawn" might be construed as poor grammar because it isn't obvious that the sentence contains an elision, so the elision is best avoided.
I prefer to use "convention" rather than "rule", but I'd disagree whatever the terminology. I'd reword both of those sentences but, if forced to stick to the original concepts, I'd prefer:
- Is my father, or are my brothers, bringing it? - Are my brothers, or is my father, bringing it?
We're not going to agree on that, are we? There are three birds on the lawn, regardless of how many of each species are present, and "There are" covers their plurality.
I'm not convinced that "there" is the subject of the sentence, by the way. My Chambers's dictionary says that "there" can be "used without any meaning of its own to allow the subject to follow the predicate". If that's correct, "a blackbird and two thrushes" is the subject of the verb, i.e. a plural subject.
Yes. "My name and address are on the envelope." What's the problem with that?
Humble though I am (almost no-one, it seems), I take issue with the learned Mr Burchfield. I can see only that "Has either of you two clowns read the assignment?" and "Is either of you taking this seriously?" makes grammatical sense. Those are what I think I'd write, though I'm not entirely sure I'd say them.
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Post by goofy on Jun 30, 2008 16:00:01 GMT
"There is a blackbird and two thrushes on the lawn."
There might not mean anything, but it is the syntactic subject. Otherwise, it seems that English can place the subject after the verb in certain constructions that are not questions. I guess that's what Chambers is assuming, but it seems to be a heterodox opinion.
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Post by Twoddle on Jun 30, 2008 16:28:08 GMT
"There is a blackbird and two thrushes on the lawn." There might not mean anything, but it is the syntactic subject. Otherwise, it seems that English can place the subject after the verb in certain constructions that are not questions. I guess that's what Chambers is assuming, but it seems to be a heterodox opinion. It's unusual (nowadays), but by no means unique, to place the subject after the verb, is it? It's seen mainly in poetic constructions - "To London Town go I"; "A hermit is he" (which sound a bit like Yoda) - but is nonetheless grammatical. Such constructions are particularly pertinent when the verb "be" is used, because "be" has no object, so who's to say which is the subject and which is the copular complement?
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 30, 2008 16:28:41 GMT
Twod, I do have a few reputable references that say that there is the subject, but it's a distraction really. What about the fruit salad:
- There is a banana and two apples in it. - There are a banana and two apples in it.
I can't believe you'd really say the latter. And yet by your own argument you must: there are three pieces of fruit and "there are" covers their plurality.
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Post by Twoddle on Jun 30, 2008 16:43:04 GMT
Twod, I do have a few reputable references that say that there is the subject, but it's a distraction really. What about the fruit salad: - There is a banana and two apples in it. - There are a banana and two apples in it. I can't believe you'd really say the latter. And yet by your own argument you must: there are three pieces of fruit and "there are" covers their plurality. I'd probably say the former, because my speech - like most other people's - tends to be ungrammatic, but I'd write the latter, because I consider it to be grammatically correct. I've had enough now. When does this thread reach its limit?
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 30, 2008 18:45:55 GMT
... but I'd write the latter, because I consider it to be grammatically correct. I don't. If you read "There are one banana and two apples in it" you'd think there was something very wrong, surely?
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Post by Twoddle on Jun 30, 2008 19:14:12 GMT
... but I'd write the latter, because I consider it to be grammatically correct. I don't. If you read "There are one banana and two apples in it" you'd think there was something very wrong, surely? No, I wouldn't; really. It looks fine to me.
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 30, 2008 20:20:39 GMT
OK!
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Post by Pete on Jun 30, 2008 21:42:21 GMT
Twod, I do have a few reputable references that say that there is the subject, but it's a distraction really. What about the fruit salad: - There is a banana and two apples in it. - There are a banana and two apples in it. I can't believe you'd really say the latter. And yet by your own argument you must: there are three pieces of fruit and "there are" covers their plurality. I appear to have missed much of this engaging controversy. But I am wholly with Twoddle here. I would also consider recasting so that things sound more sensible. Thus, "There are a banana and two apples in it" would be recast as "There are two apples and a banana in it."
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Post by Geoff on Jun 30, 2008 22:01:28 GMT
Interesting, all of it; but I have to once again ask, should seems be seem in the following sentence? Trouble is, there seems to be as many exceptions as not: lecturer, adaptor. It's the same issue, isn't it? The verb is seem, the subject is there. Is there singular or plural? I'd argue that there is a dummy subject standing for something like "as many exceptions as not exist" (that's what seems) and it's pretty hard to say it is either singular or plural. Tricky word, there. My grammar book states: There and here are not subjects.
After there and here we usually find the verb first and then the subject. Wrong: There is dances every Friday night at the community centre. Right: There are dances every Friday night at the community centre. Wrong: There comes the boys in the football team. Right: There come the boys in the football team. Wrong: Here is the tickets for the dance. Right: Here are the tickets for the dance. I never looked it up before because I never expected to find a specific mention of this construction. It does support what I expected to read in the sentence I cited: Trouble is, there seem to be as many exceptions as not: lecturer, adaptor.
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 30, 2008 23:09:14 GMT
I would also consider recasting so that things sound more sensible. Yes, but that avoids the issue rather than understanding it! Almost anything raised here could be answered with "recast it", but that's not what the board is about, surely? Anyway, now I have to lock this thread for length, sadly.
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