'tis July

[SusanB]

Jul 26, 2017 3:34:35 GMT Dave Miller said:

It's easy to blame the speaker, when what's at fault is the language (in that it doesn't provide what we need).

Yet ... language, as a tool, is created and developed by its users. We could invent some way out of the problem. That's happening, and the winning gambit is the "they" method. Perhaps it will become quite normal, once we've heard it enough - like "I'm right, aren't I?", which has a similar problem of number.

I think you're right. I see this quite a lot when an author is referring to an individual in cases where it is unimportant whether they are male or female. I write it too (as I just did!) It is no longer jarring for me (most of the time). Constantly using 'he or she' throughout text can make it quite awkward to read.

[Little Jack Horner]

Twoddle said >That's possible, LJH, although stating the child's sex would have narrowed down the million upon million of possible identities by only 50%. There would still have been many millions left.<

Come on, Twoddle. Be kind to James Gallagher, an award winning and respected journalist. The headline says "South African child". The population of South Africa is only around sixty million so we might guess at perhaps a million nine-year-olds, half of whom are boys or girls. So there are not "many millions left" — merely 500,000. Still a lot, of course.

[Dave Miller]

> stating the child's sex would have narrowed down the million upon million of possible identities by only 50%. There would still have been many millions left <

Not necessarily. It's important sometimes (legally) to protect the identity of a particular child. Other factors might have been reported - such as the school involved, or the street where something happened, or the music teacher arrested, and so on.

[Twoddle]

I hear and read "they" and "their" frequently when the sex of the person is known and there's no reason to conceal it. "The girl was taken into care for their protection" is a fairly typical example, albeit I've just made it up because I can't recall a real one to quote.

I wonder whether the apparent increase in this phenomenon has something to do with the desire to be politically correct, insofar as the use of the male pronoun is deemed to be no longer acceptable as a generic pronoun. As Dave says, it's a problem with the language that we don't have a neuter singular pronoun except "it", and "it" is unacceptable when referring to a person.

I've heard "Amn't I?" used on a few occasions - only by Irish people, I think - and it sounded most strange, although it makes sense whereas "Aren't I?" doesn't. As has been written here a few times, no-one said that English was logical.

[Little Jack Horner]

Regarding the problem of identifying the sex of babies, my daughter suggests the following strategy.

You (directly addressing the baby): Hello, and what's your name?
Baby doesn't answer but mother says: Cameron [or something else unhelpful]
You (again directly addressing the baby): And how old are you, Cameron?
Baby doesn't answer but mother says: He [or she] is three months.

Problem solved!

[Twoddle]

Jul 26, 2017 11:43:07 GMT Little Jack Horner said:

Regarding the problem of identifying the sex of babies, my daughter suggests the following strategy.

You (directly addressing the baby): Hello, and what's your name?
Baby doesn't answer but mother says: Cameron [or something else unhelpful]
You (again directly addressing the baby): And how old are you, Cameron?
Baby doesn't answer but mother says: He [or she] is three months.

Problem solved!

That's a good plan, LJH (except on rare occasions when the baby's called Lesley/Leslie, Bobby, Jo/Joe, Charlie/Charley etc.). My strategy is generally to keep quiet and let my wife waffle on with the gooey, sappy drivel. They all look like Winston Churchill anyway, and I work on the principle that unless they can hold a meaningful conversation or at least fetch a stick, I'm distinctly uninterested. I think that's probably a hint of Asperger's on my part.

Going back to the original news story, would this really sound so bad:

"A nine-year-old infected with HIV at birth has spent most of its life without needing any treatment, say doctors in South Africa. The child, whose identity is being protected, was given a burst of treatment shortly after birth. It has since been off drugs for eight-and-a-half years without symptoms or signs of active virus."

[Little Jack Horner]

But, Twoddle, that's exactly why it works. I happen to know both a boy and a girl called Cameron which is why I exemplified the name (and think of Cameron Diaz and Cameron Dallas) — and I think the strategy works for all the names you mention.

[Twoddle]

Jul 26, 2017 19:14:13 GMT Little Jack Horner said:

But, Twoddle, that's exactly why it works. I happen to know both a boy and a girl called Cameron which is why I exemplified the name (and think of Cameron Diaz and Cameron Dallas) — and I think the strategy works for all the names you mention.

Oh, yes; I see! I assumed Cameron to be always a male name, but now you mention it ... . (I had to google to find out who Cameron Dallas was. First name a Scottish clan, second name a Texan city.)

[Verbivore]

Differences between UK and US swearing.
This is a BBC Culture piece, and may be geoblocked in some locations. If so, let me know and I'll post the full article.

[Verbivore]

A piece on Aussie slang and dialect – and Amazon voice.

And a quiz.

[Little Jack Horner]

Thank you for the "swearing" article, Vv. I really think it might depend more on the circles in which one moves than on nationality. No-one in my circle would use the c-word or the f-word and some of the others only rarely. I don't think I have ever heard the c-word except in the school playground, and rarely the f-word except on television when used by comedians.

Some of the Americanisms like "gosh darn it" sound silly to my ears and serve no emphatic purpose but I think almost any expression said with venom can serve as an expletive of anger with oneself. I have tried "buttercups" which works quite well.

I suspect Aussies use swear words more than the British or at least that the words have a different connotation. My daughter-in-law chided my twelve-year-old Aussie grandson for using "bloody" in my presence, reminding him that she had told him not to use the word in England.

Then, of course, there are the words that have completely different meanings between countries. Most now know of the differing meanings of "fanny" in the USA and in Britain but my Aussie daughter-in-law was considerably taken aback when I asked, "How are the sprogs?", a friendly British colloquialism for young children.

[Twoddle]

I had to google "sprog" to see why that word, which I know only as meaning "child", should be offensive to an Australian, LJH. I'll be careful not to use it in future, when Aussies are within earshot!

[Verbivore]

Glad you found it of interest, LJH.

Gosh is supposedly a "soft" synonym for God when used as an expletive. Similarly, Jeez for Jesus.

Bloody, long the Oz ejaculation of choice, appears to have been supplanted by f[ornicate].

Fanny: a tale … At my seminary college were not a few Murkins (it was a 7th-Day Adventist institution, so a somewhat Americanish campus culture prevailed).

In a badminton game there, a young Oz lady fell onto her arse. Her male Murkin co-player gallantly rushed to help her to her feet, and in the process proclaimed his hope that "you didn't hurt your fanny". Oz girl was so shocked at this crudity that she swatted the poor Murkin a good backhander. He had no idea what he'd misspoken – until later a colleague explained it to him.

[Verbivore]

Jul 28, 2017 12:34:08 GMT Twoddle said:

I had to google "sprog" to see why that word, which I know only as meaning "child", should be offensive to an Australian, LJH. I'll be careful not to use it in future, when Aussies are within earshot!

Sprog commonly is used in Oz to mean either child(ren) or seminal ejaculate. I've never known it to be misinterpreted in context. Example: An event invitation that was child friendly read, "suitably tamed sprog welcome". No-one for a moment took that as an indication of an orgy.

[Little Jack Horner]

In the UK, "true blue" is a person committed to the Conservative party so I wouldn't wish to be counted a true blue Aussie, Vv, but I managed nine out of ten in the quiz (I failed on the one about Archer winning the cup) so please can I be reckoned some sort of honorary Aussie?