December

[Verbivore]

On another forum (not generally language oriented) there's a thread on Latin / Pig Latin, so to start the month, some Latinate jocularity.

A rhyme from schooldays:

Caesar ad sum jam forte
Brutus et sum tu
Caesar sic in omnibus
Brutus sed et tu.

A margin note found scribbled in many Latin textbooks:

Semper ubi sub ubi
(nonsense, but translates to always where under where).

And there was the bastardised present indicative conjugation of the (made-up) verb po, pare:

po
pis
pit
pimus
pistis
pants.

And then there's French …

In a Churchill biography (I forget which one) is the tale of a naughty young chorister Winston scribbling his English translation on the music for Sheep may safely graze (les moutons peuvent brouter en toute sécurité): "Muttons may unmenaced munch".

[Verbivore]

An apt typo?

MPswill

[Dave Miller]

Nov 30, 2020 20:20:53 GMT Verbivore said:

Caesar ad sum jam forte
Brutus et sum tu

I knew this as:
Cæsar adsum jam forte,
Brutus aderat

Shame I can’t remember any more.

[Verbivore]

Some time ago we discussed the pronunciation/s of zebra. The OED reports ˈziːbrə (ZEE-bra), ˈzɛbrə (ZEB-ra), which surprised some of us who only ever say / hear ˈzɛbrə, though Attenborough is recorded saying ˈziːbrə. The American Oxford (AOD) reports the UK pronunciation as ˈzɛbrə (ZEB-ra), ˈziːbrə (ZEE-bra) and the US ˈzēbrə (ZEE-bra).

Now it’s the turn of jaguar.

The OED reports ˈdʒægwɑː(r) (JAG-waar), ˈdʒægjuːɑː(r) (JAG-u-ar) while the AOD reports ˈdʒaɡjʊə (JAG-u-ar) as the UK style and ˈjaɡˌwär (JAG-waar), ˈjaɡˌyo͞oər (JAG-u-ar) as US.

Is trust in dictionaries diminished by such contradictions?

[Verbivore]

Nov 30, 2020 22:30:09 GMT Dave Miller said:

I knew this as:
Cæsar adsum jam forte,
Brutus aderat

Shame I can’t remember any more.

Dave: I'm delighted at your use of the (defunct?) letter Ash / æ.

Bring back Ash (æ) and Ethel (œ)! (Come to think of it, could they be a couple?)

[Little Jack Horner]

>Now it’s the turn of jaguar<

I don’t know how phonetically to render the guttural CH found in the Scottish word “loch” as in Loch Ness so I will, for the moment, make do with an X so that loch becomes lox. If folk will accept that ...

On holiday in South America, I heard “jaguar” pronounced XA-wah.

[Verbivore]

Dec 1, 2020 0:05:10 GMT Little Jack Horner said:

>Now it’s the turn of jaguar<

I don’t know how phonetically to render the guttural CH found in the Scottish word “loch” as in Loch Ness so I will, for the moment, make do with an X so that loch becomes lox. If folk will accept that ...

On holiday in South America, I heard “jaguar” pronounced XA-wah.

Definitely acceptable to me, LJH. X (derived from Greek chi) is in fact the IPA character for the ch of loch. (OED gives the pronunciation of loch as lɒx.)

[Verbivore]

Something sorta seasonal.

Nightmare Before Christmas in Latin! Quid Est?

[Dave Miller]

Dec 2, 2020 5:05:07 GMT Verbivore said:

Something sorta seasonal.

Nightmare Before Christmas in Latin! Quid Est?

I can’t pretend to understand any of that and don’t know the original Spanish song - but isn’t it wonderful to have the chance to hear Latin, with the speed and fluidity of a natural spoken language.

We might hear it in formal incantation, as part of religious works or services, but the last time I encountered it presented as speech was in Sebastiane - 40-odd years ago?

[Verbivore]

From that video, Dave, I followed links to others of the artist. Amazing work on all aspects, IMHO. Particularly interesting was his adoption, cyclically, of ecclesiastical, classical, and late Latin pronunciations. I'd never previously heard the classical (Oxford) in song other than in Gaudeamus Igitur, being only used to the ecclesiastical though my membership of a Gregorian choir. Classical pronunciation was what we had drummed into us at school, but it sounded harsh and not at all musical.

[Little Jack Horner]

The thoughts about spoken Latin reminded me about this video: What Ancient Egyptian Sounded Like - and how we know.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-K5OjAkiEA
I think it is interesting and maybe a good approximation but, bearing in mind the difference today between the accents of, say, Glasgow and Mumbai, I am not entirely convinced.

[Verbivore]

Alexius: a digital assistant for a modern Roman

And some fruity Latin

Verbivore: homo ex magna australi terra.

[Twoddle]

In GCE "O" Level Latin (General Certificate of Education Ordinary Level, long superseded - Dave M and LJH will recall), usually taken at age 15 or 16, I achieved my one and only Grade A pass. That was because I was too terrified of the Latin teacher to gain anything lower.

[Dave Miller]

Dec 2, 2020 10:05:34 GMT Verbivore said:

Classical pronunciation was what we had drummed into us at school, but it sounded harsh and not at all musical.

Although they speak Cantonese in Hong Kong, I got to hear quite a bit of Mandarin when I lived there, in pre-handover days. Lots of the films at the cinema and on TV were in Mandarin (with subtitles in both English and Chinese). It’s harsh and “shushy”, with lots of guttural emphases. The BBC’s World-Service Mandarin broadcasts are particularly so. One friend, though, was one of the government interpreters who might sometimes be called in for cross-border talks. I remember first hearing her speak formally in Mandarin - and being downright shocked at the light and liquid flow of sounds, the gentle poetry of rhythm, and the sweet calm it induced.

[Verbivore]

As we approach the Silly Season, here's an Aussie twist to it.

Aussie Jingle Bells

Here are the lyrics of Aussie Jingle Bells:

Dashing through the bush
In a rusty Holden ute,
Kicking up the dust,
Esky in the boot.
Kelpie by my side
Singing Christmas songs,
It’s summer time and I am in
My singlet, shorts, and thongs.

Oh! Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells,
Jingle all the way,
Christmas in Australia
On a scorching summer’s day.
Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells,
Christmas time is beaut.
Oh what fun it is to ride
In a rusty Holden ute.

Engine’s getting hot,
We dodge the kangaroos,
The swaggie climbs aboard,
He is welcome too.
All the family’s there
Sitting by the pool,
Christmas Day, the Aussie way
By the barbecue!

Oh! Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells,
Jingle all the way.
Christmas in Australia
On a scorching summer’s day.
Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells,
Christmas time is beaut.
Oh what fun it is to ride
In a rusty Holden ute.

Come the afternoon
Grandpa has a doze.
The kids and uncle Bruce
Are swimming in their clothes.
The time comes round to go,
We take the family snap,
Pack the car and all shoot through
Before the washing up.

Oh! Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells,
Jingle all the way.
Christmas in Australia
On a scorching summer’s day.
Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells,
Christmas time is beaut.
Oh what fun it is to ride
In a rusty Holden ute.

What the words mean

“Dashing through the bush In a rusty Holden Ute”
    – What is the meaning of Holden ute?

    – Holden is a make of a car by GM AU, equivalent to Vauxhall, while ute is a short form or abbreviation of the term utility (truck). Americans call it a ‘pickup truck’. So, the final translation would be “dashing through the bush in a rusty Chev pickup truck”. Also ute rhymes with boot.

“Kicking up the dust, esky in the boot”
    – What is esky?

    – Esky is an Australian brand name for a portable cooler that keeps foods and drinks cooler in an insulated container; it works by keeping ice in the container for cooling purposes.

“Boot”
    – trunk of a car used to store things

“Kelpie by my side, singing Christmas songs”
    – What is Kelpie?

    – Kelpie is an Australian breed of sheepdog with a smooth coat, originally bred from a Scottish collie or any of a breed of energetic working dogs developed in Australia from British sheepdogs. The breed originated in Scotland but is associated with Australia. It is well known as a farmer’s best friend and trained traditionally to herd sheep.

“Singlet”
    – Undershirt

“Thongs”
    – A kind of beachwear shoe – not resembling women’s underwear. A.k.a. flip-flops.

“The swaggie climbs aboard, he is welcome too”
    – What is a swaggie?

    – Swaggie is the short form of swagman. A swagman is the person who doesn’t have a particular or permanent place to live and carries a swag – nothing but a pack – and roams all over the place for work. English translation is similar to tramp. He was a common sight during the depression of 1890s & 1930s. A synonym is hobo.

“And pack the car and all shoot through Before the washing up”
    – What exactly does this line refer to?

    – This means ‘Pack your presents or gifts and load in the car before the washing up is done’. Or ‘leave quickly because someone has to clean up’.

“We take the family snap”
    – Means to take a family picture with a camera.


It's all humbuggery to me.



Another Aussie xmas song (written and performed by the notorious Rolf Harris).

If you’d rather not Rolf, here’s another performance (by Greg Champion).

Even another version (by Russell Coight).

Note: In this context, boomers are kangaroos, not Baby Boomer humans.