|
Post by Little Jack Horner on Jul 30, 2022 23:19:54 GMT
"Oh, look, someone has left their phone on the bus." Yes, indeed. Difficult, isn’t it? I have said in other places, if not here, that the singular “THEIR“ is better than many of the alternatives which have been suggested. In that situation, I would certainly use the exact sentence that Trevor has posted. I have just noticed that this is another example where the rule about I before E does not apply.
|
|
|
Post by Twoddle on Jul 31, 2022 8:25:31 GMT
I might say "their" in that example, from force of habit or from having heard it used so many times, but I wouldn't write it. In fact I think I'd probably say "a 'phone". It's easier in a language such as French where the gender belongs to the 'phone, not to the person who left it there. Easier if you can remember the gender of a 'phone, that is.
The use of them/they/their as a singular is so prevalent that it's often used unnecessarily. Many a time I've heard a TV reporter or newsreader use it when referring to someone whose sex has already been established: "The victim, Fred Bloggs, was on their way home when the incident occurred." We know Fred Bloggs is male, so why not use "his way home"?
|
|
|
Post by Little Jack Horner on Jul 31, 2022 12:06:56 GMT
“from force of habit or from having heard it used so many times” which is of course how language develops. I have an antipathy to usages such as “I’ve” instead of “I have” and “it’s” instead of “it is” in writing but clearly Twoddle does not. Such informal use is on a par with using “their” as singular pronoun and, generally, it has not the slightest impact on the clarity of meaning of the sentence (and “it is” removes one problem with the use of apostrophes). Actually, I am quite certain I have never heard anyone say, “left a phone” or “left their phone” on the bus. I seldom use buses and I have never had the experience of finding a phone when I have, so Twoddle’s comment about having heard it so many times does not arise in my case. Even so, I think I would say, “left their phone” unless I had the leisure to consider linguistic elegance whilst finding a seat on the bus.
|
|
|
Post by Trevor on Jul 31, 2022 14:27:44 GMT
'Phone left on bus' was just the first example that sprung to mind, but there are many similar situations in which I would suggest singular they is not merely "acceptable" but completely standard. And has been used since for hundreds of years. Of course it's slightly different to the usage that we're now seeing. In the examples I'm thinking of it's always where we have no way of knowing who the person is, so know nothing about them and cannot assume a gender. Related: James Acaster has a funny bit here about the use of "he or she": www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt5qJC1xQ8AAlso related, this from Tom Scott about ten years ago: www.youtube.com/watch?v=46ehrFk-gLk
|
|
VV (far from home with no p/w)
Guest
|
Post by VV (far from home with no p/w) on Aug 1, 2022 6:19:31 GMT
Posted by Trevor yesterday at 7:15am Jul 25, 2022 at 6:02pm Twoddle said: "they/them/their" (which will always be plural in my vocabulary). Trevor: "Oh, look, someone has left their phone on the bus."
Perhaps "they/them/their" was / is / might be schizophrenic / bipolar or just have delusions of royal status (hence the pluralis majestatis).
|
|
|
Post by Twoddle on Aug 1, 2022 11:13:46 GMT
We all have our personal vocabularies. In mine "they/them/their" will always be plural, "gay" will always mean happy and carefree, "epicentre" will always mean the point on the Earth's surface directly above an earthquake, and "enormity" will always mean great wickedness. Don't get me started on "like" or "cool".
I'm happy to elide with friends but I don't do so in formal correspondence; in fact I'm on a WhatsApp group with some old schoolfriends, one of whom never elides and his use of "I am" and "We will" in his messages to old chums whom he's known for sixty years looks rather stilted and unnecessarily formal to me.
My genetic make-up gives me an inbuilt dislike of being told what I should think, so I suppose I have an automatic reaction against the argument that a particular word or phrase has been misused by hoi poloi (who, let's face it, wouldn't know an adverb if it bit them in the ankle) for so long that I must now accept it as being correct usage. I have trouble with that argument, although I seem to accept that "You" can be singular and that "Aren't I" is correct grammar.
Right, off to see my analyst. They're a lovely persons.
|
|
|
Post by Twoddle on Aug 1, 2022 11:16:06 GMT
(No, I don't really have an analyst. That was a joke.)
|
|
|
Post by Dave Miller on Aug 1, 2022 21:00:49 GMT
“Their” doesn’t break the rule about i before e, as it isn’t pronounced “theer”.
(“I” before “e” except after “c”, whenever the sound is “ee”.)
|
|