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Post by TfS on Jul 30, 2008 18:49:13 GMT
also the time when ... During a posting in West Africa one of my many functions was that of Area Accounting Manager and one memorable day I was visited by our two local drivers who wished to speak with me. Me: "Yes, gentlemen, what can I do for you?" Them: "We want some more pay, sir" Me: "Ah, yes, well you see, it's like this..." and then I went into executive mode and gave a long rabble about how the money which we received over the counter in the office had to be converted to US dollars at a rate of exchange established by the Ministry of Finance and this money then had to be transferred to Scandinavia where it was used to pay for aircraft, fuel, catering, insurance, blah, blah, blah. I'm sure you get the picture. After about 20 minutes of all this, whilst the two drivers waited patiently, I concluded with the words "...and so you see, gentlemen, much as I would love to pay you more money, I'm sorry to say that there isn't any I can give you." Their reply was (and the pure logic of this statement haunts me to this day) "Oh, yes, there is, sir. It's in there!" pointing to the safe in the corner of my office. Collapse of stout party, as Punch would have it. I have no recollection of how I got out of that situation but whatever it was, it was not to my credit. This is a slight deviation from our topic but, I feel, illustrates the sort of situation we are talking about where I was not considering the cultural variation which Paul mentioned and was unceremoniously deflated for it. After this, I quickly developed an African mind-set to use when on station and this helped enormously to gain proper contact with the local peoples. Taught me not to be a 'prick' anymore.
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Post by Verbivore on Jul 30, 2008 23:08:38 GMT
I have the second edition (2004) Macquarie International English Dictionary, published by Nigel Newton under the aegis of Bloomsbury Publishing (typeset in the UK, printed in the US, titled for the Australian dictionary publisher Macquarie - so arguably quite an international effort).
From the introduction: * Note employment of the serial comma; definitely unAustralian (though I'm a fan of it) It is not to be found in the regular Macquarie.
Its publication years (first and second editions) coincide with those of the Encarta World English Dictionary, but I've been unable to determine which is derived from what - or if, perhaps, they were a simultaneous effort but published under different titles.
Upon looking up centre / center, colour / color, and manoeuvre / maneuver I found that each variety of those words had its own headword entry, but that the main entries were for the British spellings while the US varieties had only against their headwords.
For the ~ise / ~ize suffix, it gives the main entry under the ~ize variant (which, apart from in the OED, appears to be the less-preferred in the UK and Oz), with the etymology: and under the ~ise entry:
It does appear to contain common Australian and New Zealand terms that are rarely found in other (non-A/NZ) dictionaries, so perhaps it is an acceptable effort at recording / describing International English.
I wonder, however, what Americans' reactions might be to having many of the US spelling variants relegated to the seemingly secondary status of "US spelling of [UK spelling of word]".
And, if this dictionary is identical to the Encarta-titled version, does that mean Encarta somehow acknowledges UK spellings as "the standard" and US spellings as "mere" variants of that standard?
I don't have the Encarta-titled version to check against.
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Post by Dave on Jul 31, 2008 4:24:50 GMT
I don't have the Encarta-titled version to check against. I d "Encarta dictionary" and got this result--I'll let you check out the entries!
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Post by Dave M on Jul 31, 2008 8:22:30 GMT
I followed the encarta.msn.com/dictionary link and tested for "centre" and "center". It definitely took the American spelling as the norm, and under "center" mentioned no possible variants, while for "centre" the full definition quoted was "Canadian, U.K. spelling of center".
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Post by Bertie on Jul 31, 2008 9:25:10 GMT
After following this link in order to be able to read Jeff's dismissive comments about this forum, I also picked up on his seeming inability to give posters the correct link to here, which led me to look at the APS Reference Site. This contains the following passage: A new forum has also been set up by forumer Paul Doherty as an off-shoot of the Apostrophe Protection Society (although not officially connected with it) to discuss word-related matters that are not specifically dealing with apostrophes.I have highlighted a word that I don't believe exists. Is there a verb 'to forum'?
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Post by Dave on Jul 31, 2008 10:08:35 GMT
Better forumer than former!
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Post by Verbivore on Jul 31, 2008 10:29:21 GMT
I d "Encarta dictionary" and got this result--I'll let you check out the entries! Thanks, Dave. Wonder why I didn't find that link when I Googled "Encarta dictionary"? I got a few useless links, but not the real thing. Hmmm ... Okay, here we go. The MS Encarta and Macquarie International are very similar - nearly identical - in their treatments of the following three example words. Where differences occur, I have noted them thus: MS Encarta in blue / Macquarie International in red. (PS: As Dave M (? - can't be bothered going back to check now) observed, the entries for alternative spellings are US-centric in Encarta; the opposite is the case in Macquarie - though the content under the relevant headwords is nearly identical.) CENTER / CENTRENOUN form:17 definitions / 18 definitions#5. stores / shops#9. (example) a population center / [none given]#13. sports: middle player or position: in some sports, a player or position in the middle of the field or court, usually responsible for initiating play / sports: attacking player or position: in some sports, an attacking player or position in the middle of the field or court, usually responsible for initiating play#15 = #16--- / #15 football: Australian Rules player in centre circle: in Australian Rules football, a player who occupies a position in the centre circleVERB form5 definitions / 4 definitions#4. sports: pass ball toward middle: in some sports, to pass, hit, or kick a ball or puck from the edge of the playing area toward the middle / sports: pass ball towards middle: in some sports, to pass, hit, or kick a ball or puck from the edge of the playing area towards the middle#5. football: pass football back between legs: in football, to pass the ball back between the legs at the beginning of a down / ---____________________________COLOR / COLOURNOUN form 18 definitions / 16 definitions#2. gray / grey#6. nonwhite / non-white#15. physics: hue and saturation: the property or aspect of something that involves hue, lightness, and saturation or, in the case of light, hue, brightness, and saturation / ---#16 = #15# 17. printing: type of printing ink: the type and amount of inks used in a printing job a four-color brochure / ---#18. mineral extract: gold found in gravel: a particle of gold found in gravel or sand / #16. US mineral extract: gold found in gravel: a particle of gold found in gravel or sand PLURAL NOUN form (colors / colours)6 definitions / 6 definitions#2. national, state, or military flag: the flag of a nation, state, or military unit, or all of these combined, especially when on parade / national, state, or military flag: the flag of a nation, state, or military unit, or all of these combined, especially when on parade#5. U.K. sports team members' badge: a badge or other symbol given to members of a sports team In her second year she got her rowing colors / sports team members' badge: a badge or other symbol given to members of a sports team In her second year she got her rowing coloursVERB form4 definitions / 4 definitions#3. blush: to get more red in the cheeks or face than usual, generally because of embarrassment / blush: to have more red in the cheeks or face than usual, generally because of embarrassment____________________________MANEUVER / MANOEUVRENOUN form4 definitions / 4 definitions#3. devious act: an action, especially a devious or deceptive one, done to gain advantage a maneuver to avoid accountability / devious act: an action, especially a devious or deceptive one, done to gain advantage one of his little manoeuvres to try to stay in total control PLURAL NOUN form1 definition / 1 definition (identical) VERB form4 definitions / 4 definitions#4. behave deviously: to use devious means in order to gain advantage politicians maneuvering for choice committee assignments / behave deviously: to use devious means in order to gain advantage the various parties manoeuvring for the leadership(In definitions ## 1 and 3, both dictionaries give the same exemplar passages, yet each spells maneuver / manoeuvre its own way.) My eyes are about to fall out now!
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Post by Alan Palmer on Jul 31, 2008 13:06:23 GMT
I suppose I must plead guilty to writing forumer on the APS Forum Reference Site, since - ahem - I must have written it. I can't remember doing so, though. I can remember writing the paragraph, but not that word.
Guilty but insane M'lud.
In my defence I would add that any noun can be verbed. Whether it is a good idea to do so, that is left to the opinion of the court.
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Post by Dave M on Jul 31, 2008 15:40:49 GMT
> any noun can be verbed < And I feel that some candidates should be: an errer, an errorer, to two, to tutu, eded, and so on
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Post by Tone on Jul 31, 2008 20:47:24 GMT
Alan, >In my defence I would add that any noun can be verbed.<
Perhaps not if it's already got a similar but different verb form in existence.
Try it with existence.
Tone
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Post by Verbivore on Aug 2, 2008 6:04:42 GMT
A burgeoning regional variety of English - Chinglish. Here is a report from ABC News Online, with a few hilarious offerings. www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/02/2322328.htmI particularly enjoyed the "Garden with Curled Poo" and the very very non-PC "Deformed man toilet". ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Dave M on Aug 2, 2008 6:40:48 GMT
(As with many bits of journalism) we seem to have two intermingled subjects in that article - a "straight" one, deformed to produce something more sensational.
"Chinglish" is one thing; poor translations are quite another. The Institute's comments relate to "this delightful mixture of Chinese and English" and talk of the two languages joining. The rest of the article makes fun of (admittedly very funny) mistakes made.
What I know as "Chinglish" is normal - intended - speech, using pieces of vocabulary and/or grammatical structure of the two languages. In somewhere that has two main languages, people will pick up on particularly useful pieces of vocab in the one language, and happily use them in the other.
For example, British English has no adult word meaning a fizzy non-alcoholic drink, such as Coke, Fanta and 7-Up. (It has "pop" for use by children, and hasn't picked up the US "soda". In menus in Britain, we see the ridiculous "mineral water", which doesn't accurately cover it at all, and occasionally "soft drink", which is similarly unhelpful and somewhat disparaging.) The Cantonese have the useful "hei sui", so that has crossed languages in Hong Kong, and will be readily used by expatriates there who don't speak any other Cantonese: Would you like a beer - or perhaps a hei sui?
A Cantonese question form takes the pattern subject verb-m-verb object a? (where "m" is pronounce "mm" and "a" is just "a" - like a pronounced question mark!) This gives a useful short cut for a sort of "slang", where someone speaking Cantonese but quoting an English verb will use the verb-m-verb form (holding up an old report, they might ask their boss "di-m-dispose a?") and when speaking English might intersperse the pattern: "Well, we could go to the lecture ... or we could just bunk off to the beach, if we dare. Dare-m-dare a?"
That's a language of its own, with nothing in it of mistaken translation. That's Chinglish!
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Post by Paul Doherty on Aug 2, 2008 12:22:21 GMT
Good post, Dave. As for the ABC article, sometimes that type of piece smacks too much of "look at the stupid foreigners" for my taste. I'm not sure ABC quite avoided the danger. (And that use of epicentre made me cringe.) What does this mean? English is now widely accepted as the main global language and up to 250 million Chinese currently study English, whose vocabulary is now approaching one million words.
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Post by gavinmccord on Aug 2, 2008 14:55:54 GMT
It may not be standard English but where I come from, West Central Scotland we call fizzy drinks: 'ginger'. On ice-cream vans, it's also common to see 'minerals'.
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Post by Geoff on Aug 3, 2008 2:28:37 GMT
So is bad English thriving, it seems. Shouldn't the Texas-based GLM have said "Chinglish will persist and even thrive long after the Games have ended."?
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