Church names

[annabelloring]

I attend St. Nicholas' Church, and as we are planning new notice boards I want to get the apostrophe thing right.

My inclination is as above, but I understand from the FAQs that St. Nicholas's is also correct.

However, I believe there is a body of opinion which says that it should be St. Nicholas Church as the church belongs to God and not St. Nicholas. Also, should there be a full stop after St. as it is an abbreviation, as I have heard that there should be none?

Please help!

[Dave]

Welcome, annabelloring.

Your question comes up frequently. You may want to start by checking the official papers chartering the church for the "official" name and the way they originally spelled it. Look for consistency. You may want to check the opinions of your local clergy and church members before committing to the signage. And be certain to check the sign after the sign maker has done his job!

As for the period, I'd use it here in the US, but since you called it a "full stop," perhaps a British poster should answer that one.

[Paul Doherty]

Oh dear. Neither of your questions is clear-cut, Anna. There are arguments for Nicholas, Nicholas' and Nicholas's, and also for St with and without the full stop.

As Dave says, check for established usage. It may well be "The Parish Church of Saint Nicholas", which would solve your problem! (It might even be "The Parish Church of Saint Nicholas the Lesser" or "The Parish Church of Saint Nicholas in the Wolds" or somesuch.)

Also, what do people actually say? If they say I'm going to "Saint Nicholasiz" you might want to choose Nicholas's. Personally, I don't favour "the church belongs to God, not St Nicholas" argument. Firstly, it doesn't belong to either of them (whose name is on the deeds?) and secondly the apostrophe is not about ownership. A dog doesn't own its dinner, and yet we'd say a dog's dinner; a table doesn't own its shine, and yet we say the table's shine; the girls don't own their school and yet we say a girls' school.

As for St, the argument is that in British English we omit the stop if the abbreviation contains the last letter -- so Mr [Mister], Mrs [Mistress], Sgt [Sergeant], St [Street] but Col. [Colonel] and Maj. [Major].

So your St is probably OK without the stop. But, frankly, why not spell it out -- surely your boards have space for Saint?

[SusanB]

Paul, I didn't know that about Mr, Mrs, etc. Is it something that everyone knows? How did I miss it? I shall look out for it now.

[Sue M-V]

Is it something that everyone knows?

I know it! Susan, you may have missed it by being too young!

Sue

[Paul Doherty]

I know it, Susan, but I'm not sure I believe it.

[Geoff]

Oct 25, 2008 23:17:02 GMT SusanB said:

Paul, I didn't know that about Mr, Mrs, etc. Is it something that everyone knows? How did I miss it? I shall look out for it now.

I'm not sure I understand what it is that you didn't know, Susan, but I think it's the first time I've been made aware of the origin of Mrs. Mistress does, however, have connotations of a liaison which Mrs doesn't.

Now, from where does Ms originate?

[Verbivore]

Oct 26, 2008 1:21:51 GMT Geoff said:

[...] Now, from where does Ms originate?

From those who don't wish to be seen as "Adam's spare rib"?

[Paul Doherty]

It's by analogy with Mr, Geoff.

[Paul Doherty]

This is the keep-to-the-point section, the point being St Nicholas's Church. Can I ask that any further off-the-point posts (including mine!) go in the general section?

[annabelloring]

Thank you all for your input. I too never knew about the abbreviation thing!

I have to confess to still being confused about whether it should be St Nicholas, St. Nicholas's or St Nicholas' (at least I've got the full stop thing sorted). As to the clergy and people involved, well we're not sure. We could look at the church deeds, but how do we know they're right?

Am I right in thinking that any one of them would do? My favourite is St Nicholas' which I'd be happy that we went for as long as I wasn't in danger of some grammatical expert coming along and pointing out that we were wrong. Much too much for my pride to cope with!

We are at present a team ministry with St Barnabas and are planning to be "Parish of St Nicholas and St Barnabas". Is that right without apostrophes?

Thank you for all your help- much appreciated.

Annabel

[Tone]

> in British English we omit the stop if the abbreviation contains the last letter<

Well now, some of you do, but some of the English ones (at least) still use it!

Tone

[Dave]

Oct 26, 2008 18:09:11 GMT annabelloring said:

We are at present a team ministry with St Barnabas and are planning to be "Parish of St Nicholas and St Barnabas". Is that right without apostrophes?

I'd say correct--no apostrophes, even if you were operating separately where you'd say "Parishes of St Nicholas and (of)[optional] St Barnabas." Now if you put "Churches" back in your phrase, you're back to where you started with your original question.

You might ask the people over at the other church how they treat the apostrophe with regard to St Barnabas. (I don't think they've posted here yet! )

[Dave]

Annabel:

To see if you prefer the adjectival to the possessive, use a different saint's name that doesn't end in an s, like Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John--not Thaddeus or James!

The Church of Saint Mark
Saint Mark Church [adjectival]
Saint Mark's Church [possessive]

Choose your form.
Then put in Nicolas.
If you chose possessive, you'll still have to decide between apostrophe s and apostrophe only following the s-ending name.

[annabelloring]

Thanks, Dave- that's helpful. Putting it that way seems to confirm my view that an apostrophe is best. St. Mark Church seems wrong.

Annabel