Evolving punctuation

[amanda]

I am wondering if anyone agrees that it's time for a few new bits of punctuation to be introduced and offered as 'accepted practice'?

Punctuation doesn't seem to be evolving at the same rate as other aspects of the language, and any creative use of existing marks is usually considered to be incorrect.

So, perhaps the interrobang (love it or hate it!) should enter the mainstream. I would also like to see the introduction of a recognised hyphen major (long dash) and hyphen minor (shorter dash). This would be useful for phrases such as: 'She donned her teenage-rebel-style outfit'; the second hyphen being the hyphen major. (Actually, that's a rubbish example but you get the idea.)

I am also going to put the case for an official squiggle to represent 'lol' or a smiley for use in formal writing. And now I'm going to put the tin hat on...have we brought it with us from the other forum? lol.

[Barry]

Ah, well, amanda, that's a can of worms.

Who is going to 'introduce' them? The interrobang has been around for some time, but it hasn't really caught on. You've put your finger on it, I think when you use the word 'evolution'. Spelling, grammar, syntax evolve - they aren't 'introduced' or 'forced'. The only way such items are likely to enter the mainstream is if they are accepted (and used) by enough people to begin a trend.

A word about dash lengths, however. There are already several different lengths of dash in use for different purposes - hyphens, en-rules, and em-rules (en-dashes, em-dashes); all have an existing function within typography, so I don't think your major/minor hyphen typography would gain much currency (unless you were to use weight as opposed to length). I'd also submit that, while your idea about hyphen stress has some merit, most people have enough problems with hyphenation as it is, so they are unlikely to be able even to think about major ones and minor ones!

Surely, the point of smilies and lols is that they are informal. Writing that used them would instantly become informal - what defines formal writing is their absence (along with the absence of even older-established conventions, such as apostrophised compound phrases like shan't).

[Dave M]

I think we already can see punctuation evolving:

(1) the long dashes in the old I saw my aunt—the one with the poodle—walk over to the door are being replaced (at least in British circles) by a shorter form with spaces: I saw my aunt – the one with the poodle – walk over to the door.

(2) Many people have changed e.g. to eg - and similarly for other short letter combinations.

(3) Where (up to the 1930s, at least) there was a space before a colon or semi-colon, that is now just about extinct.

(4) The use of typewriters meant the demise of longer dashes, and although computer-based systems can now handle them, many people don't know (a) when they might use which, and (b) how to get their computers to produce them.

[Tone]

I am wondering if anyone agrees that it's time for a few new bits of punctuation to be introduced and offered as 'accepted practice'?

Tone is against it. (And Charles agrees.)

So, perhaps the interrobang (love it or hate it!)

Tone thinks it's disgusting!
(And Charles agreed, when Tone asked her.)

Tone

[suvvern]

I know this may make me sound ignorant, but what's an interrobang ?

[Dave]

Here's an article about it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang

[Geoff]

Tone,

I agree with your opinion of the interrobang. Introduce it and we will soon be accepting multiple question marks and multiple exclamation marks.

Also, why introduce more punctuation marks when so many can't correctly use the ones we already have?

[amanda]

I'll take that as a no, then.

(Sorry to disgruntle you, Antonia!)

[Tone]

From that wikipedia link:

Like multiple exclamation marks and multiple question marks, such strings are generally considered very poor style in formal writing.

Hurrah for that! Excelsior!

Mandy,

"Antonia"

Nor quite. Try again.

Tone

[Sue M-V]

I'll take that as a no, then.

I use it - not superimposed, but one followed by the other, depending on whether it's an exclamatory question or an interrogative exclamation. Naturally, I'd never dream of using it in formal writing, but I don't often write terribly formally in English. I'm also pretty restrictive with it. I never use multiple punctuation marks as they make no sense. It's up to the reader to supply the degree of wonderment or whatever. I can't see the logic in using e.g. three question marks in succession because the mark signals a question, not a more or less puzzling question.

I think Twoddle uses it, too, but he'll have to come back and say that himself!

I do have a slight problem with tag questions. I usually give them question marks, but they don't always have the function of questions, do they?

[Tone]

Sue,
I don't often write terribly formally in English.

One would surely hope not. You should always write impeccably formally in English!

Tone

[Sue M-V]

Ah, another failed attempt at informality on my part!

What I was thinking there was that the only truly formal writing I do, apart from the (occasionally very) odd translation, is in Swedish - minutes of meetings, letters to authorities and such like!

Sue

[Pete]

May 8, 2008 22:03:58 GMT amanda said:

I am wondering if anyone agrees that it's time for a few new bits of punctuation to be introduced and offered as 'accepted practice'?

Does anybody remember Victor Borge? He did a fantastic sketch where punctuation was represented during speech by various sounds (cheek pops, whistles, and the like). Rereading Amanda's post makes me want to go and dig out my old Victor Borge video tapes.

[Sue M-V]

He did a fantastic sketch where punctuation was represented during speech by various sounds

... Not to mention his "inflationary language"! And he could play the piano, too.

Sue

[Bertie]

He did more than one version of his "phonetic punctuation" - all absolutely brilliant as were most of his sketches based around classical music.
I remember the punchline of one of his readings. Having gone through his full repertoire of clicks, swooshes etc. denoting various punctuation marks - including the interrobang, which was kkkkkkkkk put phwwwoooop put - he left the stop off the final sentence, thus;

All she heard was the sound of his departing horse

I believe that he was also the progenitor of the phrase "it's not over till the fat lady sings". I remember one of his references to the entrance of a Wagnerian contralto - "She came on in a single pile".

Unfortunately, I lost my entire Victor Borge collection many years ago, and only have memory to go by.