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Post by Trevor on Jun 12, 2008 20:31:01 GMT
I mentioned this sign a couple of months back on the APS board, but hadn't been past it with my camera until yesterday... Link to photo on Flickr
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Post by Geoff on Jun 12, 2008 23:07:26 GMT
Trevor,
I see your point; but what struck me more than the each - their pairing is the antecedent for 'their'. Is it 'the handle' or 'each trolley'? It seems to me to be 'the handle'. Do we need instructions for the safe use of 'the handle?
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Post by goofy on Jun 13, 2008 3:28:20 GMT
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Post by Twoddle on Jun 13, 2008 7:27:07 GMT
I know that "they" and "their" have been used as singulars for many a century, but I still find that the use offends mine eye. Currently I'm working my way through the Harry Potter series and, although the books are ripping yarns and easy to read, Rowling's persistent use of plural pronouns when referring to a single person feels like potholes in an otherwise smooth road. She also misuses "myself" quite a bit, too, but I suppose encouraging children (and adults) to read books containing slightly dodgy grammar is better than not encouraging them to read at all. While there may be justification for using "they" and "them" to avoid clumsy constructions such as "he/she", "s/he", "him/her" etc., Trevor's original point was that there's no reason at all to use "they" and "them" to replace the neuter "it".
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Post by Dave M on Jun 13, 2008 8:22:02 GMT
> encourages the use of "they" with singular antecedents. <
Surely only where the gender is otherwise a problem? The pattern is useful in Each applicant must write their name clearly at the top, but makes no sense in This can has clear instructions for how to open them.
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 13, 2008 10:25:44 GMT
I don't think so; at least your link doesn't show it. The document says (my bold): 1. Consider using the third-person pronouns "they", "their", "them", "themselves" or "theirs" to refer to a singular indefinite noun, to avoid the unnatural language that results from repeating the noun.
2. Do not use "they" to refer to a definite singular noun.
3. Ensure that the pronoun's antecedent is clear. A "singular indefinite noun" is a much narrower set than your "singular antecedents". Indeed, recommendation two directly contradicts your claim: a "definite singular noun" is a singular antecedent, but the document forbids use of "they" with it. All the document's examples and dictionary citations refer to cases where the alternative is to use something like his/her; nothing in the document leads me to think that the author would prefer their to its. And the B&Q notice fails recommendation three.
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Post by Alan Palmer on Jun 13, 2008 10:26:48 GMT
I heard a TV reporter use this construction when referring to a football team. All the team members are men and it made no sense to use 'their' rather than 'his' in this case. If it had been a mixed team, it would have been different ...
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 13, 2008 10:49:15 GMT
Habit, I suppose.
If it's acceptable, it's acceptable, I suppose. We need a word for "least bad option", don't we!
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Post by goofy on Jun 13, 2008 13:00:20 GMT
I don't think so; at least your link doesn't show it. geez. OK, some singular antecedents.
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Post by Dave M on Jun 13, 2008 13:22:48 GMT
> geez <
Well ... it is a particular, and relatively small, group of singular antecedents for which "they" is informally acceptable, isn't it?
The weather is doing their worst. Manchester is proud of their heritage. The girl said they were lost. I lost their temper. David Davis resigns their post.
Paul doesn't think so, and I don't either!
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Post by goofy on Jun 13, 2008 13:32:38 GMT
> geez < Well ... it is a particular, and relatively small, group of singular antecedents for which "they" is informally acceptable, isn't it? The weather is doing their worst. Manchester is proud of their heritage. The girl said they were lost. I lost their temper. David Davis resigns their post.Paul doesn't think so, and I don't either! I agree. None of those sentences are grammatical. I am assuming that native speakers can tell the difference between grammatical and ungrammatical utterances, given time to reflect. Obviously mistakes can be made, like in the B&Q sign.
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 13, 2008 14:02:05 GMT
> geez <
Goofy, I'm not nit-picking. Your claim that "The government of Canada ... encourages the use of they with singular antecedents" is a big claim, and needs to be substantiated. Your citation really doesn't do that.
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Post by goofy on Jun 13, 2008 14:16:10 GMT
My citation shows that the government of Canada encourages "they" with singular antecedents. A certain kind of singular antecedent, not all of them. Why can't you read my mind? The government of Canada says don't use "they" with a definite singular noun, but what they really mean is a definite singular noun that has a specific referent. We can use "they" with definite singular nouns that do not have a specific referent: Do not speak to the driver or distract their attention without good cause. But we can't use "they" with definite singular antecedents that have a specific person as their referent: *Do not speak to the king or distract their attention without good cause. ( from here.)
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 13, 2008 15:10:30 GMT
A certain kind of singular antecedent, not all of them. Indeed. And not the sort used in Trevor's photograph, so it's not a relevant citation. Perhaps you were intending to broaden the discussion, rather than confuse it?
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 13, 2008 15:16:47 GMT
My citation shows that the government of Canada encourages "they" with singular antecedents. I don't think that can mean what you want it to mean. A general statement can only be assumed to apply generally: if I say I don't eat meat, I can't make that mean I don't eat turkey sausages on alternate Wednesdays in March. This matters (to me at least) because I think people here expect a citation to back up a point made, even if we don't check it. To cite a reference that makes an entirely different point is unhelpful.
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