Will/shall, would/should

[Pete]

When should (or would) we use will or shall, or would or should. They seem to be used as synonymic pairs but do they actually have different meanings?

So, does, "I will do it" mean the same as, "I shall do it"?

Does, "I would like to thank you" mean the same as, "I should like to thank you"?

[Rajesh Valluri AKA Raj]

Holy cow!!
I thought this was obvious to native English speakers. Even I know this concept very well. Let me try to explain.
"I will" implies an agreement on my part that I am going to do something no matter what. "I will see you tomorrow", "I will bring you the money" etc. "I shall", on the other hand, implies that I am going to do something, provided a certain conditions are met. "I shall see you tomorrow, provided my flight reaches Sydney on time". In most cases, the condition is not mentioned in the sentence itself, usually being mentioned in the preceding lines of conversation.
Similar logic applies to "should/would". "Please call me after 5:00PM, I would be back from work by then", for instance, tells that I am going to be home after 5:00. Replacing "would" with "should" makes my being home by 5:00 probable but not certain.
"I would like to thank you" means I want to thank you while "I should like to thank you"? means I am required by some rules or conditions to thank you.
So, the answer to your question is an absolute no. Shall/Will have completely different meanings and can not be used interchangeably.

[Dave M]

Mmmm

I'm not sure it's that simple, Vallurirajesh ...

It's not (I think) so much to do with probabilities and conditions, as it is with the will (ie desire and intention) to do something. I shall die, eventually, but I'm not expecting to say I will die.

It then gets 'orribly mixed up as we "swap" genres, moving away from I to he/she/it and you - where the pattern inverts itself.

As if that were not bad enough, we can then overlay the meaning of "ought": is I thought I should go carrying the past tense of shall go, or the present tense of ought to go?

[Pete]

It isn't as simple as you suggest, vallurirajesh. For a start, we native English speakers would never say, "Please call me after 5, I would be home by then." We would either use "will" or "should", depending on whether it's fairly certain that I will be back by 5, or merely my current assumption.

"Will" cannot mean the certainty that you suggest, as it is a future sense and the future is always uncertain. I accept that it may carry an overtone of intention, but I am not sure that this differs from "shall". And many people use "shall" in the sense that you propose for "will", particularly friends of mine from Northern Ireland. But is this just a local vernacular use?

[Tone]

Done this before. Dis anyone save it?

Tone

[Pete]

Was it here or on the old APS site? I don't remember seeing it here.

[Sue M-V]

The problem, Pete, is that there's a wonderful set of rules, set down for our benefit in days of yore, that some people have drummed into them at an early age (and won't let go of), and which others have studiously avoided learning. That's why it can get a bit confusing.

If we take the first rule first: think in terms of two different futures - a) the simple future, for describing events yet to happen, and b) the future with determination, for describing events which one is responsible for bringing about. They look like this:

a) I shall - we shall
---- ---- - you will
he/she/it will - they will


b) I will - we will
--- --- - you shall
he/she/it shall - they shall

So we say, I shall probably do it tomorrow, and shall we go now? but I will never speak to him again as long as I live, and we will make sure you're not late. We also say: you will be far too early if you leave now and she will make a great supervisor, but Cinderella, you shall go to the ball and they shall not pass.

However, since this is plainly bonkers, and most people just say I'll, you'll, we'll, etc anyway, the rules, such as they are, are fairly useless. They act as a wonderful pointer to those who have had a proper education! ;D

In real life, you need only think of what to say when you're asking a question about what I/we shall do. We normally say shall we go now? (not will we go now?) and shall I open the window? (not will I ...?). Most people use will/'ll for all other cases.

Should and would are easier because of the difference in meaning. For all practical purposes, would is used as a conditional, with an if in the other part of the sentence: I would buy it if I had the money. Should is used as a strong recommendation: you should work harder if you want that promotion.

But then there are variations. We use would to express past habit: he would always have a glass of sherry before dinner, and should to express calculated guesses: she should be here any minute. I'll not bore you will all the examples! The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the shall/will distinction bleeds over into should/would, so that some people (like me, usually!) use should for the first person singular and plural and would for the others in conditional sentences: I should say he was one of the best actors of his generation, and I should say so! (The if here is an implied if you asked me.)

does, "I will do it" mean the same as, "I shall do it"?

As you see, according to the rule, no. My best example, which I have previously posted on the old APS was given to me by my teacher, many moons ago. Imagine a girl who can't swim falling into a river. She screams and shouts: "I will drown, and nobody shall save me!" The man on the bridge, who had considered leaping in to get her out, hears her cry and walks on, realising that she is deliberately killing herself. In order to be pulled out, she should shout: "I shall drown, and nobody will save me!" then, taking pity on the poor thing, the man would have fished her out.

Well, you did ask.

Sue

[Pete]

Sue. thank you. This is very helpful (I am much better informed, as they say). And I like the story at the end!

[Dave M]

Beautifully done, Sue!

(And just to add one further wrinkle: "would" can act without a sense of the conditional, where it's the past tense of "will": he said he would ring me, but he didn't)

[Dave]

There's also the "I wish" definition for would:

Would that she were here!

[Pete]

Jun 22, 2008 14:14:18 GMT Dave said:

There's also the "I wish" definition for would:

Would that she were here!

Which is, of course, a subjunctive, too.