Adjectival vs possessive - a specific case

[Trevor]

Hi all, I've having a light hearted debate on twitter with someone and looking for some ammunition. The beer tent at Greenbelt Festival has for many years been called "The Jesus Arms". I posted a photograph of the pub sign and someone has picked up the fact that it doesn't have an apostrophe - something I've never noticed as I guess I've never thought it needed one.

I suggested "adjectival rather than possessive" and it seems like he's never come across the idea, and quite rightly pointed out that pubs like "The King's Arms" would normally have one. Hmm, yes, so why does this feel different, I thought? I asked if the pub was named for him he would opt for "The Dave Arms" or "The Dave's Arms" - thinking clearly The Dave Arms sounds better - but he said he's go for Dave's.

Next question - Would he opt for The Jesus' Arms or The Jesus's Arms? His reply: "Either is stylistically acceptable - even though the 2nd "s" is superfluous..." (So he does seem to know about subtleties here.) I still feel it's not a possessive use, and his last reply was "So who DOES own those arms on the pub sign, then? (And more importantly, if cartoon Jesus isn't operating them, WHO IS DOWN HIS ROBE doing it? Could it be... KEITH HARRIS?"

So, questions for the group...

Would you agree that this is a good example of an adjectival rather than possessive construction?

Can you suggest similar examples I could show him?

Etc...

[Verbivore]

Adjectival to me, Trevor, as there’s no hint of possessive (genitive) – it’s the Arms of the type Jesus. (I wonder if they turn their water into wine – or beer; or, worse still, water their booze.)

Example: The company that makes Smiths instruments (those terribly wobbly-needled speedometers found in ’50s and ’60s British cars) is the Smiths Group – a company of the type / brand Smiths.

Hope that helps your discussion.

[Trevor]

Thanks. I'm not much of a drinker, but I gather they sell a pretty good range of beers and ciders, and not watered down. "Crazy Goat" seems to be particularly popular.

[Dave Miller]

This is an odd example, because it defies my usual first step, which is to ask, “what is the writer trying to say?”.

It would seem very odd for Jesus ever to have had (a formal coat of) arms, nor can I think that any such heraldic bling was attached to the idea of Jesus at any later point.
Rather, it seems that “The ~~~ Arms” is being used as a template for the name of a pub/beer-tent (with no real reference to heraldic arms, or any understanding that that’s where the word comes from).

We then need to know quite which of all the possible “The ~~~ Arms” we are dealing with. And in this case, it’s the “Jesus” one.

For me, that makes it a simple adjectival use (as in The Arts Council).
The possessive version would refer to the heraldic device (which doesn’t exist).

If they could wind time back, perhaps the festival organisers would drop the definite article and call the tent “Jesus’s Arms”, giving a double-entendre: name of the “pub” and also the phrase often used to represent the feeling of support and protection which some believers claim.

[Trevor]

Interesting thoughts Dave. As it happens I'm quite sure the double entendre is very deliberate event with or without the apostrophe. When the MainStage programme finishes each evening the compere tends to announce "until tomorrow, I commend you commend you into the arms of Jesus" or something along those lines. It is a Christian Festival after all.

For what it's worth, the bar at the second music stage is called The Blue Nun (and has a sign showing Whoopie Goldberg). 

[Verbivore]

Little One’s what – derrières? And how many little ones or backsides?

[Twoddle]

Aug 30, 2023 21:51:07 GMT Trevor said:

For what it's worth, the bar at the second music stage is called The Blue Nun (and has a sign showing Whoopie Goldberg). 

Whenever my mother saw an advertisement for Three Nuns wine she'd make the same comment: "Three nuns. Never had none, don't want none, can't get none".

[Little Jack Horner]

>>Little One’s what – derrières? And how many little ones or backsides<<
One little one's wipes, surely?