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Post by Verbivore on Aug 2, 2008 6:10:26 GMT
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Post by Dave M on Aug 2, 2008 6:55:49 GMT
I'm a bit confused, there: IS the town pronounced with an "f", or did the Freenet system just decide so and block it? (and if it IS pronounced with an "f", how did the Freenet system know, and why doesn't it stop "the word "whack" and so on??)
Intriguingly ... "wh" as "f" also occurs in Aberdeen (but not much in the rest of Scotland). When my schoolmate went off there to University, he came back reporting with glee on the weird questions people would ask:
Fie did you do that?
Fair are you going?
Fen did he arrive?
Fitch one is he?
This only happens with the words which otherwise would begin with a "hw" sound (the Scots are particularly careful to pronounce the h, now dying away in England), so it doesn't work with who and how.
I didn't really believe him, till I visited him there - and yes, they do!
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Post by TfS on Aug 2, 2008 7:39:33 GMT
Dave M,
This only happens with the words which otherwise would begin with a "hw" sound (the Scots are particularly careful to pronounce the h, now dying away in England), so it doesn't work with who and how.
This "f" sound would seem to be a corruption of the Old Norse sound of "phwe" in words like
hvar - where
hvem - who/whom
hvad - what
hvilket - which
where the "hv" became transposed and corrupted to "wh" in English.
Modern Norwegian retains the "hv" spelling whereas Swedish has migrated to "v" as in
var - where
vem - who/whom
vad - what
vilket - which
The Vikings had a much stronger influence on the language in Scotland than in England.
Closer geographically, more invasions, trade routes, emigration, marriage, families, etc.
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Post by Verbivore on Aug 2, 2008 8:12:35 GMT
I'm a bit confused, there: IS the town pronounced with an "f" [...] Yup - it's fakatane. (The first "a" is pronounced like a short "u".) I have been aware of the phenomenon for years, by dint of having many Kiwi friends. I can only conjecture that the Whreenet system has been programmed with whonetic information whrom many languages in order to catch as many "naughty" words as possible. (Stupid bloody censorship nonsense!) |
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Post by Pete on Aug 2, 2008 8:58:11 GMT
The Vikings had a much stronger influence on the language in Scotland than in England. Closer geographically, more invasions, trade routes, emigration, marriage, families, etc. And of course more in the north of Scotland, like Aberdeen, than in the south. |
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Post by Dave on Aug 5, 2008 6:28:40 GMT
Modern Norwegian retains the "hv" spelling whereas Swedish has migrated to "v" as in var - where vem - who/whom vad - what vilket - which Tony, With the (relatively) recent addition of w to the Swedish alphabet, will there be spelling changes to existing Swedish words or will it be used for new or "borrowed" words? |
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Post by TfS on Aug 5, 2008 8:26:15 GMT
Tony, With the (relatively) recent addition of w to the Swedish alphabet, will there be spelling changes to existing Swedish words or will it be used for new or "borrowed" words? Dave, Actually, the w is not a recent addition to the Swedish alphabet. It was used far more frequently than the v in earlier years ( Wasa ship) but what has happened is that it has been granted its own position in the alphabet. Until 2005 it has existed side by side with the v and had no own value being pronounced as a v. It was quite irritating when one heard a website being named on radio or TV, that the www part of the URL was pronounced vvv. The w now takes its correct place after the v. No spelling reforms will take place as w names and words were just mingled amongst the v's and they are now being given their own 'section' so to say. |
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Post by Vadim on Aug 5, 2008 9:58:26 GMT
Modern Norwegian retains the "hv" spelling whereas Swedish has migrated to [...] vad - what [...] This causes great amusement in MSN conversations (based on Internet poker) I have with my Swedish counterparts. They often put "vad?" When talking in their mother-tongue to each other - I frequently respond with "what?" , thinking they are asking something of me, to which they respond "Yes. How did you know what that meant?" ... and so-on the conversation becomes amusing! ;D |
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Post by goofy on Aug 5, 2008 13:11:14 GMT
Wikipedia claims that Māori has a bilabial fricative /ɸ/, which is spelled with <wh>. It is like /f/ but made with both lips. This "f" sound would seem to be a corruption of the Old Norse sound of "phwe" in words like hvar - where hvem - who/whom hvad - what hvilket - which where the "hv" became transposed and corrupted to "wh" in English. I think you're saying that the Old Norse sound influenced the English pronunciation in certain areas of Britain, not that we borrowed the Old Norse sound altogether. In Old English the sound was spelled <hw>, as in hwær, hwa, hwæt, hwylc. The letters <hw> were later transposed to <wh>. |
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Post by Dave on Aug 5, 2008 14:49:41 GMT
Thanks, Tony.
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Post by TfS on Aug 5, 2008 15:42:31 GMT
Wikipedia claims that Māori has a bilabial fricative /ɸ/, which is spelled with <wh>. It is like /f/ but made with both lips. This "f" sound would seem to be a corruption of the Old Norse sound of "phwe" in words like hvar - where hvem - who/whom hvad - what hvilket - which where the "hv" became transposed and corrupted to "wh" in English. I think you're saying that the Old Norse sound influenced the English pronunciation in certain areas of Britain, not that we borrowed the Old Norse sound altogether. In Old English the sound was spelled <hw>, as in hwær, hwa, hwæt, hwylc. The letters <hw> were later transposed to <wh>. goofy, No doubt this is what happened. |
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Post by Alan Palmer on Aug 5, 2008 17:45:32 GMT
A can remember a French assistant when I was at school. He pronounced French rather differently from the standard Parisian version we were taught, particularly "oui", which came out like "hweeee", with a sort of dying-away sighing sound. I have a vague memory that he came from the Camargue, but I could well be mistaken.
Where's osric when we need him?
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Post by Paul Doherty on Aug 5, 2008 23:26:11 GMT
Osric -- not posted for ages, has he? Calling Osric ...
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