Letter confusion

[Deleted]

Dear Sirs...

Yours sincerely...Yours faithfully...


I'm confused as to how letters should be addressed and signed off.
Please could someone give me the lowdown?

I'd be most thankful.
Gore

[Dave M]

Hi, gore

Nowadays, we can expect business letters to have quite a wide range of beginnings and endings, but in more formal days, the pattern was this:

When the recipient's name is not known to you:
Dear Sir ... Yours faithfully
Dear Madam ... Yours faithfully
Dear Sir or Madam ... Yours faithfully

When you do know the recipient's name:
Dear Mr Hanson ... Yours sincerely
Dear Mrs Hanson ... Yours sincerely
Dear Miss Hanson ... Yours sincerely
Dear Ms Hanson ... Yours sincerely

A quick way to remember that was to think of a knight, called "Sir Faithful".

Nowadays, it seems a rather arbitrary and silly "rule"!

[Twoddle]

Aug 7, 2008 9:24:56 GMT Dave M said:

Hi, gore

Nowadays, we can expect business letters to have quite a wide range of beginnings and endings, but in more formal days, the pattern was this:

When the recipient's name is not known to you:
Dear Sir ... Yours faithfully
Dear Madam ... Yours faithfully
Dear Sir or Madam ... Yours faithfully

When you do know the recipient's name:
Dear Mr Hanson ... Yours sincerely
Dear Mrs Hanson ... Yours sincerely
Dear Miss Hanson ... Yours sincerely
Dear Ms Hanson ... Yours sincerely

A quick way to remember that was to think of a knight, called "Sir Faithful".

Nowadays, it seems a rather arbitrary and silly "rule"!

Arbitrary, yes; but still expected to be followed by many, including (for example) prospective employers. So it's as well to follow the rule.

[Dave M]

We see it differently, Twod: I'd expect modern employers to be much more careful in their use of language than to distance their customers with dry correspondence that ends in either of those "sign-offs".

The letters will be ABOUT something, and the sign-offs can usefully add to the message and the tenor of what lies behind it, using styles such as:

If you need any further information, do let me know
I look forward to hearing from you
I look forward to seeing you then
Please let me know how you'd like to proceed
We look forward to a successful project
Once again, I apologise for the inconvenience
I would appreciate your immediate reply.

[Pete]

Or even "love and kisses" but that would only be for very special customers!!

[Geoff]

Aug 7, 2008 10:36:52 GMT Dave M said:

The letters will be ABOUT something, and the sign-offs can usefully add to the message and the tenor of what lies behind it, using styles such as:

If you need any further information, do let me know
I look forward to hearing from you
I look forward to seeing you then
Please let me know how you'd like to proceed
We look forward to a successful project
Once again, I apologise for the inconvenience
I would appreciate your immediate reply.

I'm afraid I'm of the old school, or perhaps it's a case of old habits die hard, but I would still write 'Yours sincerely/faithfully' after each of those final words.

I look at official correspondence these days and find the lack of some sort of uniformity in style and presentation somewhat annoying. Some letters are not even dated. With others you need to send out a search party to find the date or the 'personal' particulars of the originator. With some others you have no knowledge of the authority of the person signing the correspondence, and I'm not referring to letters clearly signed by someone on behalf of someone else, although even then you don't know if the person on whose behalf the letter was signed is aware of the contents.

Modern forms of communication have led to a bit too much informality for my liking.

[Dave]

Aug 7, 2008 10:36:52 GMT Dave M said:

If you need any further information, do let me know
I look forward to hearing from you
I look forward to seeing you then
Please let me know how you'd like to proceed
We look forward to a successful project
Once again, I apologise for the inconvenience
I would appreciate your immediate reply.

I see those as perhaps the last line of the body, not as the "sign-off."

[Dave M]

Well, Dave - that's where we differ! If someone writes to me:
Once again, I apologise
Fred

and someone else writes:
Once again, I apologise.
Yours faithfully,
Fred

Then it's the first one who sounds more genuine, caring, involved, real, likely actually to do it, likely actually to have read and understood my letter, and so on.

When I sign a letter, I like (usually!) to sound all those things, so would avoid the "yours faithfully", etc.

[Vadim]

Aug 7, 2008 14:46:42 GMT Dave said:

Aug 7, 2008 10:36:52 GMT Dave M said:

If you need any further information, do let me know
I look forward to hearing from you
I look forward to seeing you then
Please let me know how you'd like to proceed
We look forward to a successful project
Once again, I apologise for the inconvenience
I would appreciate your immediate reply.

I see those as perhaps the last line of the body, not as the "sign-off."

I'm with Dave (not actual with with, but you get my drift!)

Let me know what you think...

Yours scincerely
Vadim

[Vadim]

Aug 7, 2008 15:22:29 GMT Dave M said:

Well, Dave - that's where we differ![...]
Then it's the first one who sounds more genuine [...]

I do however, agree that it's completely dependent on the situation. I rarely send formal salutations and sign-offs to colleagues etc, but I think (getting back to the original question) that for someone to ask this question on a language forum, the are probably looking for the formal way (job, CV, etc.) They wouldn't ask just to stick it in an email.
{IMO}

[Geoff]

I would agree with Vadim that it's dependent on the situation. The original example conclusion was Once again, I apologise for the inconvenience. That followed by Yours sincerely, sounds as though it's part of a more formal letter than that which might have ended with the abbreviated form. Compare:

Once again, I apologise.
Fred

Once again, I apologise for the inconvenience.
Yours faithfully,
Fred

I feel both forms would be perfectly acceptable in the right circumstances.

[Pete]

Aug 7, 2008 16:20:23 GMT Geoff said:

I feel both forms would be perfectly acceptable in the right circumstances.

Which is the crucial point. The approach will vary with the position of the writer, the intended recipient (writee?) and the nature of the correspondence.

I almost said that, in corresponding with a total stranger, you can't go wrong if you use the formal rules. But, of course, today we find that you can go wrong using those rules, because some of the people with whom we might be corresponding will think of us as old fuddy-duddies!

[Twoddle]

I agree with most of what's been said. Nevertheless, I reckon employers (especially those of the old school) would do a double-take at a letter that started "Dear Sir" and ended "Yours sincerely".

Like most of the older members here (Dave M excepted), I shudder at the informality in some of the formal letters I receive. I don't want to be addressed by my forename by someone I don't know, and I do expect a letter that starts "Dear (Name)" to end "Yours sincerely", and a "Dear Sir" letter to end "Yours faithfully". Anything else strikes me as over-familiar, impertinent, or displaying ignorance, and sets me against the writer before I've even read what he's written. That's why I say it's best - in formal letters - to stick by the "rules", because you might be writing to a curmudgeonly old git like me.

[Tone]

>Modern forms of communication have led to a bit too much informality for my liking.<

Hear, hear!

And I agree (for once) wholeheartedly with Twoddle's view on the matter.

Yours playfully,
Tone

[SusanB]

I also prefer 'sincerely' and 'faithfully' to be written in the right places. (But I also don't mind just 'yours', followed by the name.) But, Twoddle, have you noticed that women now write letters too?