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Post by Bennie on Aug 11, 2008 13:13:01 GMT
The brash, confident, 34-year-old driver...
Or should it be: The brash, confident 34-year-old driver...
That final comma before the driver's 'age' throws me.
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Post by Dave M on Aug 11, 2008 13:23:38 GMT
It can be either, Bennie, with a very subtle change in meaning.
The "usual" pattern would be the second version, and this tells us that the confident driver was brash.
The version with TWO commas, though, places "confident" as an extra piece of information - a sort of aside, as though "confident" were in brackets. This tells us about the brash driver, and interjects that the driver was, by the way, confident.
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Post by Dave on Aug 11, 2008 14:24:17 GMT
Typically the commas start appearing after two adjectives (so when there are three or more adjectives); I'd count "34-year-old" as one adjective.
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Post by Dave M on Aug 11, 2008 15:08:12 GMT
Mmm. I hadn't thought of it that way, Dave.
Where we have three or more words all acting in the same way as adjectives, I'd agree wiwth the "commas start appearing after two": a gnarled, worn, shiny piece of wood.
But sometimes the "flavour" of the adjectives is somehow different: I wouldn't, for example, write a battered, green, filing cabinet, or even a battered, green filing cabinet. I'd just write a battered green filing cabinet.
Dunno why!
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Post by Bennie on Aug 11, 2008 15:14:12 GMT
Yeah, I think I've got it. In reality it is a list of adjectives and thus a comma is needed.
Thanks.
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Post by Tone on Aug 11, 2008 20:36:02 GMT
Dave M,
>It can be either, Bennie, with a very subtle change in meaning.
The "usual" pattern would be the second version, and this tells us that the confident driver was brash.
The version with TWO commas, though, places "confident" as an extra piece of information - a sort of aside, as though "confident" were in brackets. This tells us about the brash driver, and interjects that the driver was, by the way, confident.<
Excellently put!
Tone
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Post by Dave on Aug 12, 2008 9:40:31 GMT
Mmm. I hadn't thought of it that way, Dave. Where we have three or more words all acting in the same way as adjectives, I'd agree wiwth the "commas start appearing after two": a gnarled, worn, shiny piece of wood. But sometimes the "flavour" of the adjectives is somehow different: I wouldn't, for example, write a battered, green, filing cabinet, or even a battered, green filing cabinet. I'd just write a battered green filing cabinet. Dunno why! is a noun phrase as such--those words need to stay together: a filing green cabinet just doesn't make sense! This is from a grammar book: Two or more adjectives may modify the same noun. Sometimes these come in different layers; for instance, we first call someone a public servant and then say what kind: a loyal public servant. Loyal and public are not interchangeable ( a public loyal servant would not make sense). When two adjectives are interchangeable, they may be coordinated by and, or instead by a comma:a dirty and shaggy dog
a dirty, shaggy dog
a long and difficult assignment
a long, difficult assignment
happy and carefree crowds
happy, carefree crowds Use the and-test to decide whether to put in this comma: a delicious hot dog (NOT: a delicious and hot dog)
a dry, hot summer (COULD BE: a dry and hot summer) Notice that a common principle applies whenever a comma is definitely required between coordinated elements: Similar elements appear next to each other, but there is no connective to tie them together. This comma could therefore be called a "joining" comma, since we could often put an and in its place. I wouldn't count filing as one of the adjectives since its really part of the noun cabinet. So when you write battered green filing cabinet, I agree with no comma; but add an adjective and the commas get added also: old, battered green filing cabinet. |
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Post by Dave M on Aug 12, 2008 10:10:52 GMT
Yes, indeed, Dave - but why have we both happily dispensed with the comma between "battered" and "green", where it seemd OK in "happy, carefree crowds"?
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Post by Verbivore on Aug 12, 2008 11:01:05 GMT
Yes, indeed, Dave - but why have we both happily dispensed with the comma between "battered" and "green", where it seemd OK in "happy, carefree crowds"? No idea of the provenance of this notion, but it explains my usual comma / no comma practice with consecutive adjectives: If the adjectives describe a similar or related quality, they get commaed; if they describe unrelated qualities, they don't get commaed. Examples: The red, white, and blue rag ... The big bad ugly bastard ... . |
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Post by SusanB on Aug 12, 2008 11:16:02 GMT
Verbivore - did you have anyone particular in mind?  |
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Post by Twoddle on Aug 12, 2008 11:49:07 GMT
Verbivore - did you have anyone particular in mind? How did he come up with that description when he's never seen seen a photograph of me? |
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Post by Verbivore on Aug 12, 2008 12:14:45 GMT
SusanB and Twod: ;D  ;D |
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;D