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Post by Pete on Jun 7, 2008 22:18:52 GMT
So will I, when I decide what to call myself! Any suggestions from others? Tone I have signed up and I referred to myself as an author and reader. But the important one is reader, since the objections are about how age banding may put children off reading. If we had been put off reading at young ages, none of us would be posting here.
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Post by Sue M-V on Jun 8, 2008 0:01:51 GMT
So will I, when I decide what to call myself! I signed it and didn't call myself anything! I didn't see the list of other names until afterwards, and then couldn't really see the point - it's as if some people's opinion is worth more because they happen to have a certain job. Is it relevant that I teach English, or that I'm a parent? Would the people who ultimately receive the petition be justified in disregarding my signature if I confessed to being a navvy or a stevedore? Sign away, Tone. Write "photomultiplier designer" if you like. Sue
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Post by Geoff on Jun 8, 2008 4:15:56 GMT
[...] However, there is an inevitable delay between your sending your email and its being uploaded. Pete, 'Sending' and 'being' are verbal nouns. They, not 'you' and 'it', are the objects of the preposition 'between'. They are 'owned' by 'you' (therefore, your sending) and 'it' (therefore, its being).
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 8, 2008 5:27:04 GMT
But an alternative reading would be that you sending your email and it being updated are noun phrases (as in here is a picture of you sending your email) and they are the objects of between.
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Post by Geoff on Jun 8, 2008 7:39:33 GMT
Paul,
I'm afraid I can't agree.
In your example, 'you' is clearly the principal object of the preposition 'of', so it is not the same situation as that on which Verbivore commented, namely:
where the delay is 'between' the 'sending' and the 'uploading'.
This could be a good subject for a separate thread.
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Post by Geoff on Jun 9, 2008 12:50:03 GMT
In the thread 'How many ways to misuse the apostrophe?' there is ongoing discussion involving the preposition 'between' which prompted me to resurrect this thread. I was interested in thoughts on Paul's example and my take on it.
There's no ulterior motive here, Paul.
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 9, 2008 13:35:03 GMT
There's no ulterior motive here, Paul. And I didn't think there was. I too would be interested in other people's views. I think I have a programmer's view of the matter: sentences are just templates to be filled with the right kind of objects. The template for between is between [noun ] and [noun ]. The object "noun" is satisfied by a noun, a pronoun, a noun phrase or a gerund. - there is an animosity between Blair and Brown - there is respect between you and me - there is a delay between jumping and landing So far, so good. But what are "your sending your email" and "you sending your email". I suggest they both qualify. Dave M was good at this way back, wasn't he? Didn't he distinguish between "I admire your walking" and "I admire you walking" -- both valid, but in the first the walking is being admired and in the second "you" is being admired. So I suppose my version of Vv's phrase ("there is an inevitable delay between you sending your email and it being uploaded") boils down to "there is an inevitable delay between you ... and it". Syntactically fine, but semantically rubbish. Hmm, perhaps you're right!
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Post by Pete on Jun 9, 2008 14:12:28 GMT
There's no ulterior motive here, Paul. And I didn't think there was. I too would be interested in other people's views. I think I have a programmer's view of the matter: sentences are just templates to be filled with the right kind of objects. The template for between is between [noun ] and [noun ]. The object "noun" is satisfied by a noun, a pronoun, a noun phrase or a gerund. - there is an animosity between Blair and Brown - there is respect between you and me - there is a delay between jumping and landing So far, so good. But what are "your sending your email" and "you sending your email". I suggest they both qualify. Dave M was good at this way back, wasn't he? Didn't he distinguish between "I admire your walking" and "I admire you walking" -- both valid, but in the first the walking is being admired and in the second "you" is being admired. So I suppose my version of Vv's phrase ("there is an inevitable delay between you sending your email and it being uploaded") boils down to "there is an inevitable delay between you ... and it". Syntactically fine, but semantically rubbish. Hmm, perhaps you're right! But can we think of 'you sending' and 'it being uploaded' as compound nouns or noun phrases (again, I don't know the correct technical terms)?
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Post by Dave M on Jun 9, 2008 14:26:21 GMT
> Dave M was good at this way back, wasn't he? <
Mmmm. Speaking of ulterior motives ...
(I thought I still was!)
I think you have cleared up the difference yourself, Paul: your sending your e-mail has at its root the gerund "sending" (acting as the noun), whereas you sending your e-mail is structured around the noun "you".
The picture of you sending your e-mail is structured (mentally, anyway!) as picture of you (while you were, or in the style you adopted when) sending your e-mail.
However ... normal English accepts the "you" version!
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 9, 2008 14:42:35 GMT
But can we think of 'you sending' and 'it being uploaded' as compound nouns or noun phrases Even if we can, it still comes down to a delay between "you" and "it", so it doesn't work in sense, even if it does in grammar.
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Post by Sue M-V on Jun 9, 2008 23:34:37 GMT
Even if we can, it still comes down to a delay between "you" and "it", so it doesn't work in sense, even if it does in grammar. As Dave M says, Paul, you seem to have worked it out nicely for yourself! It's the sending and the being uploaded that are being compared, not you and it. What sending? Your sending! What being? Its being! Since sending and being have the function of nouns, they are gerunds, and behave as nouns. The problem is that when we see something ending in -ing, we tend to think of verbs. We can accept: I like dancing, where dancing is a gerund. It could be preceded by the: the dancing this evening was excellent, so it's obviously functioning as a noun. It doesn't sound anything like she is dancing (where it's a verb). So if we can say the dancing is excellent, we must accept her dancing is excellent, and see that I enjoy her dancing must be OK! In the same way, we'd say your dancing is excellent, and I enjoy your dancing, not I enjoy you dancing, which sounds very strange! Here endeth the lesson! Sue
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Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 10, 2008 0:29:00 GMT
Thank you Sue. I did actually know about gerunds and things (and knew that was why Vv's construction worked) but it took me a while to understand why my alternative wasn't valid as well.
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Post by goofy on Jun 10, 2008 3:08:34 GMT
Gerunds are not nouns, tho. Gerunds can take objects: I enjoy dancing/parties. I enjoy dancing/*parties to songs.
And they can be modified by adverbs. I enjoy dancing quickly.
I would agree with those who said it depends on the focus. I don't see what's wrong with "I enjoy you dancing" or "I enjoy your dancing."
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Post by Vadim on Jun 10, 2008 7:54:53 GMT
Nor I. However, I see them as two different things, as stated earlier. Enjoy "you" dancing, being the enjoyment of that particular person dancing, no matter what they are dancing to, or how they are dancing. Enjoy "your" dancing, being the enjoyment of the actual dancing of that person, even if you don't particularly like the person; the enjoyment of the actual dance for instance. May we have another lesson please Miss? .
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Post by Sue M-V on Jun 10, 2008 11:43:22 GMT
I did actually know about gerunds and things (and knew that was why Vv's construction worked) I know, Paul; I was quite sure you did, but I sometimes go into "teacher mode" and can't control myself! In equating gerunds with nouns, I was simplifying to make a point. I don't agree that (a) "I enjoy you dancing" and (b) "I enjoy your dancing" mean the same. In (b) it is the dancing that is being enjoyed. A response to (a) might be: do you enjoy me even when I'm not dancing? The mind boggles!A good example of this sort of difference is: (a) My wife ahtes me reading her letters. (b) My wife hates my reading her letters. It seems clear to me that the wife doesn't hate her husband even when he's reading her letters; she just wishes he wouldn't do it. What she hates is the reading of the letters by him. Otherwise, we get a picture of a difficult relationship in which, during the period when the husband is reading the letters, the wife hates him! That seems a bit unrealistic, although one might argue a case for it. Taken to its expreme, if the wife caught her husband actually reading her letters and had a gun in her hand, he wouldn't last long. Realistically, she's more likely to complain, rather than file for divorce or shoot him. It's the letter-reading she wants rid of, not the husband. It's like: (a) Do you mind me smoking? (b) Do you mind my smoking? I'm not asking whether you mind me, as a person; I'm asking whether you mind the smoking (I guess you'd mind it as much, whoever was doing it) -- in this case, perpetrated by me. Sorry! labouring the point a bit, but it seems clear to me that there is a distinction that not everyone seems to appreciate! Sue
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