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Post by TfS on May 28, 2008 7:51:39 GMT
The Daily Telegraph, on its website news pages, referred last week to the Reverend Mr Whatever who'd got angry and pulled a display of supposedly-offensive station ary off the shelves in a shop. Both in the headline and the text, even. And now this from the Mail Online: (my editing in red)Pet shop worker's week-long fight for life after bite from deadly snake A pet shop worker faced an agonising four-day fight for life after he was bitten by one of the world's deadliest snakes. Lee Thompson, 26, had been handling reptiles since childhood and was never bitten once. (how many times was he bitten then?) But when one finally sank its fangs into his thumb, it was a common death adder - one of the ten most poisonous snakes on the planet. (only if you eat it, otherwise it is venomous) ... 'I was about to put the snake back in his box,' said Mr Thompson, 'I must have laid him at slightly the wrong angle because he reared up and bit me on the thumb. I felt a burning sensation and knew I had been venomised.'
The common death adder's poison is so dangerous that nearly two-thirds of human bite victims die without antivenom. TfS
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Post by Pete on May 28, 2008 8:21:17 GMT
The Daily Telegraph, on its website news pages, referred last week to the Reverend Mr Whatever who'd got angry and pulled a display of supposedly-offensive station ary off the shelves in a shop. Both in the headline and the text, even. And now this from the Mail Online: (my editing in red)Pet shop worker's week-long fight for life after bite from deadly snake A pet shop worker faced an agonising four-day fight for life after he was bitten by one of the world's deadliest snakes. Lee Thompson, 26, had been handling reptiles since childhood and was never bitten once. (how many times was he bitten then?) But when one finally sank its fangs into his thumb, it was a common death adder - one of the ten most poisonous snakes on the planet. (only if you eat it, otherwise it is venomous) ... 'I was about to put the snake back in his box,' said Mr Thompson, 'I must have laid him at slightly the wrong angle because he reared up and bit me on the thumb. I felt a burning sensation and knew I had been venomised.'
The common death adder's poison is so dangerous that nearly two-thirds of human bite victims die without antivenom. TfS Do the rest die with antivenom? ;D
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Post by TfS on May 28, 2008 9:17:59 GMT
Do the rest die with antivenom? ;D Ha Ha ;D. I missed that one, Pete. Thanks. TfS
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Post by Dave M on May 28, 2008 10:44:25 GMT
> poisonous ... (only if you eat it) <
Mmm ... I'd never heard, and even after considering it wouldn't make, that distinction. You can get mercury poisoning through the skin, for example. A venomous snake is deadly (or makes you ill) only because the venom is (by definition) poisonous, surely.
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Post by Pete on May 28, 2008 10:47:31 GMT
> poisonous ... (only if you eat it) < Mmm ... I'd never heard, and even after considering it wouldn't make, that distinction. You can get mercury poisoning through the skin, for example. A venomous snake is deadly (or makes you ill) only because the venom is (by definition) poisonous, surely. But the snake per se isn't poisonous, the venom is. Whereas mercury is poisonous. Mind you, I wouldn't have picked up the distinction, either. It just seems right, now that I have seen it.
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Post by TfS on May 28, 2008 10:57:02 GMT
> poisonous ... (only if you eat it) < Mmm ... I'd never heard, and even after considering it wouldn't make, that distinction. You can get mercury poisoning through the skin, for example. A venomous snake is deadly (or makes you ill) only because the venom is (by definition) poisonous, surely. It's the difference between ingest and inject. Poison or venom. These terms are often used interchangeably, but they actually have very different meanings. It is the delivery method that distinguishes one from the other. Poison is absorbed or ingested; a poisonous animal can only deliver toxic chemicals if another animal touches or eats it. Venom, on the other hand, is always injected. Every venomous animal has a mechanism to inject toxins directly into another animal. Stab with tails. Slash with spines. Pierce with fangs. Spike with spurs. Shoot with harpoons. Chew with teeth.California Academy of SciencesTfS
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Post by Dave M on May 28, 2008 11:14:27 GMT
Mmm ... specialist use, surely!
"Venom" means "poison", from the Latin Venenum, meaning ... poison!
If the snake isn't poisonous, just the venom, then presumably there are no "poison arrows", either, though (since they're designed to pierce) there are venomous arrows. If you're making some, what is it you put on the end - venom or poison? It would only be venom once it's ON the end, as up till then, without means of injection, it was just poison ...
Surely this shows that venom is "poison (to be) delivered by injection" - a kind of poison, not a thing separate from poison.
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Post by TfS on May 28, 2008 12:43:02 GMT
Mmm ... specialist use, surely! "Venom" means "poison", from the Latin Venenum, meaning ... poison! If the snake isn't poisonous, just the venom, then presumably there are no "poison arrows", either, though (since they're designed to pierce) there are venomous arrows. If you're making some, what is it you put on the end - venom or poison? It would only be venom once it's ON the end, as up till then, without means of injection, it was just poison ... Surely this shows that venom is "poison (to be) delivered by injection" - a kind of poison, not a thing separate from poison. I am no specialist and but I have always used this distinction between the two words. Poison arrows are still not venomous since the toxin which has been added to the arrow tip remains a poison even though it is "injected". It does not change character due to its method of insertion into a body. The poison used will have been taken from an animal, fish, or plant by some method but it was always a poison and was never venom. TfS
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Post by Dave M on May 28, 2008 12:46:39 GMT
> It is the delivery method which distinguishes one from another < > (poison) does not change character due to its method of insertion <
Which?
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Post by Paul Doherty on May 28, 2008 13:29:08 GMT
I feel venom is something that has to be injected by a living thing. Once you extract venom and use it on an arrow, you're using it as a poison.
Not supported by dictionaries, I admit. But I think the distinction between a venomous animal and a poisonous one is useful. A snake is no longer venomous when dead, for example, but a toad would still be poisionous.
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Post by TfS on May 29, 2008 6:13:50 GMT
> It is the delivery method which distinguishes one from another < > (poison) does not change character due to its method of insertion < Which? Fair cop, guv. I'll come quietly. TfS
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Post by Barry on May 29, 2008 10:16:38 GMT
I see where you're going, Paul. I'd nuance it slightly and leave it at 'injected'; it's the muscular action that counts, I think. Plants are living, but they're never venomous, always poisonous.
And, metaphorically, when you describe someone someone as poisonous, it's usually a general sort of statement - they are generally unpleasant to deal with; when someone is venomous, it's usually a more acute thing - a deliberate action (usually an insult).
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Post by TfS on May 29, 2008 13:07:03 GMT
I see where you're going, Paul. I'd nuance it slightly and leave it at 'injected'; it's the muscular action that counts, I think. Plants are living, but they're never venomous, always poisonous. And, metaphorically, when you describe someone someone as poisonous, it's usually a general sort of statement - they are generally unpleasant to deal with; when someone is venomous, it's usually a more acute thing - a deliberate action (usually an insult). Problem is that Dave M's point (excuse the pun) about the "poison arrow" is that the toxin is injected and therefore should be a "venom arrow". That's why I have thrown in the towel. TfS
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Post by amanda on May 29, 2008 13:28:55 GMT
What's the opposite of venomous? Anyway, in Asia there lives a non-venomous snake which makes itself poisonous by eating toxic toads. At the approach of a predator it puffs up some glands on its neck as a warning and will secrete the poison if attacked.
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Post by Paul Doherty on May 29, 2008 13:46:42 GMT
Having mulled for a while, I think I agree with Barry. Best left as just injected.
To my mind, the explanation for Dave's apparent "poisonous arrow paradox" is that a arrow cannot really be said to inject anything, even if tipped with venom. Surely arrows do much of their damage by disrupting muscle and tissue -- they are essentially stabbing instruments? Placing poison amongst the disrupted tissue is hardly what I'd think of as an injection.
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