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Post by Paul Doherty on May 29, 2008 13:47:12 GMT
How do you know this stuff, Amanda?
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Post by Pete on May 29, 2008 14:02:40 GMT
What's the opposite of venomous? Anyway, in Asia there lives a non-venomous snake which makes itself poisonous by eating toxic toads. At the approach of a predator it puffs up some glands on its neck as a warning and will secrete the poison if attacked. I think there are also jellyfish species that incorporate the poison-injecting cells from certain sponges (cnidarians, if memory serves). |
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Post by Pete on May 29, 2008 14:03:55 GMT
Having mulled for a while, I think I agree with Barry. Best left as just injected. To my mind, the explanation for Dave's apparent "poisonous arrow paradox" is that a arrow cannot really be said to inject anything, even if tipped with venom. Surely arrows do much of their damage by disrupting muscle and tissue -- they are essentially stabbing instruments? Placing poison amongst the disrupted tissue is hardly what I'd think of as an injection. I think that poison arrows are more like tiny darts that would do no harm at all (or very little) were they not dipped in poison. |
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Post by Pete on May 29, 2008 14:07:01 GMT
Why does a venom have an anti-venom but a poison has an antidote? Why not an anti-poison?
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Post by Dave on May 29, 2008 14:11:05 GMT
You'd think there would've been a dote then that needed counteracting!
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Post by Pete on May 29, 2008 14:14:12 GMT
You'd think there would've been a dote then that needed counteracting! I like "dote". It's part dope, part dolt and reminds me of a couple of people I know. Thanks, Dave. I'll use it in that context, if I may. |
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Post by amanda on May 29, 2008 14:19:23 GMT
You really don't want to know... but since you ask ( ;D ) I came upon that bit of info only recently, when I was reading up on the habit of toad-licking.
Misguided individuals have been going about doing this in the belief that the toad's secretions will provide a hallucinogenic "high". However it only works with a Colorado River toad, and the concentration of the venom/poison (?) on its skin would make you very ill. Apparently it's better to smoke it. (Hey, I'm only reporting what I read!) The toxic ingredient burns away leaving behind the hallucinogen.
That's how I got on to toxic toads and snakes; it's surreal that I got the opportunity to share the gem on a thread about paper clips!
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Post by Paul Doherty on May 29, 2008 14:47:25 GMT
I think that poison arrows are more like tiny darts that would do no harm at all (or very little) were they not dipped in poison. But they are not little flying syringes, surely? An injection carries the implication of the substance being released under pressure, not merely being carried on the tip of a dart. So a poison dart is still a stabbing instrument, not an injecting instrument. When bitten by a rabid dog, I don't feel one has been injected by rabies. The dog's teeth are tearing instruments, not injecting instruments. A snake releases venom under pressure through hollow fangs -- a true injection. The need for pressure is perhaps why I initially felt that venom had to be injected by a living thing. A dead snake couldn't produce the pressure to inject. |
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Post by Paul Doherty on May 29, 2008 14:52:09 GMT
I wonder if Tesco stocks toad-smoking apparatus? They already have the Rizlas, of course.
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Post by Pete on May 29, 2008 16:35:49 GMT
I think that poison arrows are more like tiny darts that would do no harm at all (or very little) were they not dipped in poison. But they are not little flying syringes, surely? An injection carries the implication of the substance being released under pressure, not merely being carried on the tip of a dart. So a poison dart is still a stabbing instrument, not an injecting instrument. When bitten by a rabid dog, I don't feel one has been injected by rabies. The dog's teeth are tearing instruments, not injecting instruments. A snake releases venom under pressure through hollow fangs -- a true injection. The need for pressure is perhaps why I initially felt that venom had to be injected by a living thing. A dead snake couldn't produce the pressure to inject. Paul, I was thinking of inject in the sense of introducing into the blood stream (popping it in, just for Amanda  ), rather than forcing it in under pressure. My SOED seems agree with both possibilities: 2. Drive or force into a passage, cavity or solid material under pressure and 3. Introduce suddenly or with force. But equally, I agree that I would not have said that I had been injected with the rabies virus when bitten by a rabid dog. Is this one of those areas where we have to accept that English can be a bit fuzzy, so we have to glean the meaning from context and common sense and not worry too much about technical definitions? |
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Post by Barry on May 29, 2008 16:40:38 GMT
Hmmm ... And toxins have antitoxins, but I'm not sure what tocsins have ... |
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Post by Pete on May 29, 2008 16:43:15 GMT
Hmmm ... And toxins have antitoxins, but I'm not sure what tocsins have ... And Auntie Toxin's child would be Toxin's first cousin (cross-threading again)  |
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Post by Paul Doherty on May 29, 2008 17:30:54 GMT
Pete, I think, in fact, that English is often surprisingly precise. Inject still seems to require an element of active, forced introduction: your SOED quotations surely support that?
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Post by Pete on May 29, 2008 17:35:53 GMT
Pete, I think, in fact, that English is often surprisingly precise. Inject still seems to require an element of active, forced introduction: your SOED quotations surely support that? Yes, I agree, but I think an arrow / dart that is designed to break the skin and thus introduce the poison into the blood stream has precisely that element of forced introduction. We are debating whether the introduction of the toxin has to be forced - as in a hypodermic syringe - or whether the delivery vector can be the forced element - as with a poisoned arrow. |
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Post by Paul Doherty on May 29, 2008 18:19:15 GMT
OIC, Pete. Yes, fair point.
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), rather than forcing it in under pressure. My SOED seems agree with both possibilities: 2. Drive or force into a passage, cavity or solid material under pressure and 3. Introduce suddenly or with force. But equally, I agree that I would not have said that I had been injected with the rabies virus when bitten by a rabid dog.
