lulu
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Post by lulu on Sept 5, 2010 10:28:28 GMT
I thought I understood the apostrophe, but then decided I did not. I now go to extraordinary lengths to avoid them rather than use them incorrectly I was wondering how folk on here feel about using brackets instead of an apostrophe. So for example: Please leave towel(s) on the floor if you wish them to be cleaned. Hope to hear from someone soon
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Post by Geoff on Sept 5, 2010 22:57:37 GMT
Lulu, So, you would normally use an apostrophe in the sentence you cited: Please leave towel's on the floor if you wish them to be cleaned. If that is so, then your use of the apostrophe is incorrect. It is not used to pluralise words (except, arguably, in one or two cases for clarity). It is used to show the omission of letters or to indicate posession: don't = do not (omission of letters)
The child's crayons. (the child owns the crayons)
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Post by Dave on Sept 6, 2010 2:56:00 GMT
Geoff has pointed out the two main uses of the apostrophe in written English, and he has alluded to pluralization in certain special situations. Towel is not one of them! Pluralization of many English nouns is done simply by adding an s to the word (no apostrophe): dog/dogs; tree/trees; towel/towels. Those that end in ch or sh may take an es: church/churches; splash/splashes. If it ends in y, the y is changed to i and an es is added: company/companies; candy/candies. Some have special forms that just have to be learned: foot/feet; tooth/teeth; child/children; zoon/zoa. Others have the same for the singular and their plural: sheep/sheep; deer/deer. The rules for the apostrophe are fairly simple--they just need to be learned the same as the other rules need to be learned. If using parentheses (brackets) were to be used in place of the apostrophe, those very same rules would need to be learned as well! Your example Please leave [the] towel(s) on the floor if you wish them to be cleaned. has a meaning already: Please leave your towel or towels on the floor if you wish them to be cleaned. a shorter way to write the singular and plural without writing out the words or sentence twice, although I would think that writing out one or the other on a sign would include the one not written as well--unless you're a lawyer! I contend that the apostrophe is part of the spelling of a word, so that really what you're learning is spelling, not apostrophe rules. See this thread for more.
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lulu
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Post by lulu on Sept 6, 2010 14:31:31 GMT
Thanks to Geoff and Dave for your posts. I have read through the link Dave kindly sent through but I still can't get my head round how to apply it to my situation.
I am proof reading an essay for a friend and they are using the term 'carrier' as in haulier, transporter and such like throughout the essay.
We have been discussing when an apostrophe should and should not apply. Below are a few examples:
1. " ... there is little interest from the carrier's customers ..." (one carrier, several customers)
2. "... carriers can lower their prices ..." (more than one carrier)
3. " ... it was not possible to resolve the carrier's dilemma." (one carrier)
4. "... the more carriers in the market ..."
Are any of the above correct? We seem to have got ourselves into a real pickle about this.
Lulu
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Post by Pete on Sept 6, 2010 15:59:30 GMT
Thanks to Geoff and Dave for your posts. I have read through the link Dave kindly sent through but I still can't get my head round how to apply it to my situation. I am proof reading an essay for a friend and they are using the term 'carrier' as in haulier, transporter and such like throughout the essay. We have been discussing when an apostrophe should and should not apply. Below are a few examples: 1. " ... there is little interest from the carrier's customers ..." (one carrier, several customers) 2. "... carriers can lower their prices ..." (more than one carrier) 3. " ... it was not possible to resolve the carrier's dilemma." (one carrier) 4. "... the more carriers in the market ..." Are any of the above correct? We seem to have got ourselves into a real pickle about this. Lulu Lulu, they all look correct to me, and for the reasons you have stated in your explanations. So you and your friend seem to be getting it right, pickle or otherwise.
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lulu
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Post by lulu on Sept 6, 2010 16:08:50 GMT
Thanks for your post, Pete.
Are they really ok? I'm flabbergasted!
Every time we look at them, we change them. The one's shown are the latest iteration (after reading several of the posts on here!) and we were very uncertain about them all. We thought that 1 and 3 should perhaps not have an apostrophe at all, whilst 2 and 4 should.
We may have stumbled into getting the examples shown correct, but it feels more by luck than judgement. I don't think we actually understand why they are right.
Lulu
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Post by Pete on Sept 6, 2010 18:38:59 GMT
Thanks for your post, Pete. Are they really ok? I'm flabbergasted! Every time we look at them, we change them. The one's shown are the latest iteration (after reading several of the posts on here!) and we were very uncertain about them all. We thought that 1 and 3 should perhaps not have an apostrophe at all, whilst 2 and 4 should. We may have stumbled into getting the examples shown correct, but it feels more by luck than judgement. I don't think we actually understand why they are right. Lulu Lulu, I think Geoff's post explains the basic rules: if it's a plural, don't use an apostrophe; if it's about ownership, then apostrophes are required. So the word I have highlighted above is wrong, as it's just a plural and should be "ones".
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Post by Dave on Sept 6, 2010 19:09:08 GMT
lulu: It appears that your confusion is between possessives and plurals, both of which use an s. See above where Geoff shows how to create the possessive by adding an 's to the noun doing the possessing: the crayons belonging to the child becomes the child's crayons. Possession can also be association, not just strict ownership as such. You've been focusing on carrier as your "problem" word, but you don't seem to have a problem with pluralizing the other words: customers and prices. Were you tempted to add an apostrophe to either of those? Should you need to, here's how to create the possessive of a plural ending in s: just add an apostrophe: ... the carriers' concerns over pricing ... (several carriers) [the concerns of the carriers over pricing] This points out another way to test your phrases--swap the phrase around using "of." 1. " ... there is little interest from the carrier's customers ..." = " ... there is little interest from the customers of the carrier ..."
2. "... carriers can lower their prices ..." [no possession here]
3. " ... it was not possible to resolve the carrier's dilemma." = " ... it was not possible to resolve the dilemma of the carrier."
4. "... the more carriers in the market ..." [no possession here]
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lulu
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Post by lulu on Sept 7, 2010 10:38:15 GMT
Thanks to Pete and Dave for their posts. Much appreciated. Pete - you got me! I intially wrote ones, then decided it was wrong and added the apostrophe Dave - I think you have hit the nail on the head re possessives and plurals. Sometimes I can see the difference, but then I lose the plot. That said, I do seem to be having a particular problem with the word 'carrier' - I don't usually make such heavy weather of it and, by reading stuff out loud, can usually work it out. Your tips re how to create the possessive and using 'of' sound good. I'm off to try them out on what I hope is the last reading of this essay! By the way I love your can of Spam, Dave. Very droll. Thanks again, Lulu
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Post by Dave on Sept 7, 2010 13:24:21 GMT
You're welcome!
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lulu
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Post by lulu on Sept 7, 2010 14:49:02 GMT
I have just finished reading through all the sentences in the essay containing the word 'carrier' using Dave's tips, whilst bearing in mind the comments from Geoff and Pete.
It really helped to keep thinking about possessives and, when in doubt, using 'of' to test it out. I can't swear that I've got them all right, but I feel reasonably comfortable that I've done a good job.
Sincere thanks to Geoff, Dave and Pete for taking the time to help me.
Lulu ;D
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Post by Sue M-V on Sept 11, 2010 12:44:25 GMT
Lulu, in case you're still looking in, I'd just like to say: don't panic!
What's confusing you, as Dave and Pete have suggested, isn't the poor old apostrophe, but the appearance of an S at the end of a word. What you can bear in mind is that in their basic form (the first thing you'd see if you looked it up in the dictionary), very few English words end in an S (as, perhaps, some Latin words like crisis, thesis etc and a few Greekish ones like hippopotamus). That means that if there's a S on the end of a word it's been put there for a reason. You just have to figure out why.
Usually it's because the word is plural (one dog, two dogs). Sometimes it's because it's a verb (I sing, she sings) and sometimes it's because it's possessive (this is where Dave's of comes in).
I noticed that you put in your note about carrier: the carrier's customers ..." (one carrier, several customers)
The point is that it makes absolutely no difference how many customers a carrier has when you're trying to decide about the S, or the apostrophe for that matter on the word: carrier.
Read Dave's link and think about it, and if it's still not clear, come back and ask some more. We have infinite patience.
Sue
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Post by SusanB on Sept 11, 2010 16:17:39 GMT
Sue - I like your Greekish!
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Post by Sue M-V on Sept 11, 2010 23:26:35 GMT
Yes, I suppose if they were really Greek they'd have to be spelt all funny. Sue
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