won't

[suvvern]

Can anyone tell me why "will not" is shortened to won't, but should not becomes shouldn't and shall not becomes shan't ?

(Question asked as a result of hearing a young child say "willn't "and be corrected by his mother).

[Bertie]

I thought the little darlings always said "shan't".
Either way, the child would appear to be disobeying its mother, a much more heinous offence than incorrect use of English.

[Dave]

This link shows the won't coming from an older version of "will." As for shan't, could it be that the l's were at one time apostophised also and then that apostrophe got lost? I only find in my Webster's that shan't is defined as "shall not" without any other derivation or comment.

[goofy]

won't is not a contraction of will not, it's a contraction of wol not. shan't is a contraction of shal not.

[Sue M-V]

In old texts you see "shall not" shortened to sha'n't.

Sue

[Tone]

Hey! Dave's "This link" came up on my VDU in bright blue! Hurrah!
(See other thread for the problem.)

Now, who did something different?
(And please do it again, and again, and ...)

Tone

[Geoff]

Perhaps, in the context of the origins of shan't and won't, someone could explain the origin of ain't as in the following line from the Melinda Schneider song, 'Spaghetti is Ready':

There ain't no such thing as having too many shoes

While we're at it, is there any reason why lyricists/songwriters (particularly in country songs) almost always follow ain't with another negative?

I've said before that I think I've been on these language forums for too long because I feel I've become more sensitive to the bad grammar in the lyrics of too many songs. The poor grammar sometimes takes the enjoyment away from the music. Consider, for instance, the following from another song on the same Melinda Schneider album:

I wanna be married I wanna be single too
I wanna be married I wanna be single too
I don't wanna say I don't boy but I don't wanna say I do
I wanna be married I wanna be single too
.
.
.
I wanna love you baby but I wanna love another too
I can't make my mind up what I wanna do
It's just a little problem that I'm going through
I wanna love you baby but I wanna love another too

[Dave]

Jun 15, 2008 3:24:27 GMT Geoff said:

Perhaps, in the context of the origins of shan't and won't, someone could explain the origin of ain't as in the following line from the Melinda Schneider song, 'Spaghetti is Ready':

Check here for Webster's explanation.

There ain't no such thing as having too many shoes

She knows my wife!

Jun 15, 2008 3:24:27 GMT Geoff said:

While we're at it, is there any reason why lyricists/songwriters (particularly in country songs) almost always follow ain't with another negative?

Cf. The Rolling Stones' "Can't get no satisfaction."

[Verbivore]

Jun 15, 2008 3:24:27 GMT Geoff said:

[...]

I wanna be married I wanna be single too [...]

Oh dear! Why even concern oneself with the "correctness" (or not) of those lyrics when they are so egregiously trite? They barely qualify as verse, let alone being lyrical.

I accept that verse and lyrics are generally allowed considerable licence, however, so am not sure they can be held to the same conventions as, say, formal prose (but BAD is still bad).

[Sue M-V]

Once again I think it's a question of over-correcting. Even up to the Victorian era I think it was acceptable to use ain't as a contraction of am not. Some people, however, had started to use it for a contraction of all forms of the present singular of the verb to be + not, and so it was gradually outlawed by zealous upholders of "correct grammar", to the point where it was thought unacceptable use altogether!

I suppose that most people, whose grasp of grammar is innate and not really conscious, found it too hard to distinguish between the cases when it was thought right to say ain't, and the cases when it wasn't, so if you cared about correctness, the safest bet was not to say it at all. Meanwhile, there have always been plenty of people who couldn't care a fig for correctness.

"We don't want no education!"

Sue

[Alan Palmer]

"We don't want no education!"

All the members of Pink Floyd were fairly well educated, though. Three of them met at a poly while studying architecture.

Their school-days, particularly Roger Waters's, were apparently not particularly happy ...

[Twoddle]

Jun 15, 2008 9:50:24 GMT Sue M-V said:

"We don't want no education!"

Sue

Sue, was that you quoting from a pop song?

[goofy]

the history of ain't

[Tone]

While song lyrics are mentioned, I rather like the double entendre of:

"This bed of Rose's that I lay on"

(But I rather like the song.)

Tone

[Sue M-V]

Sue, was that you quoting from a pop song?

If that's what it was, I suppose I must have been!

Sue