|
Post by goofy on Jun 25, 2008 15:48:52 GMT
I mentioned before, I think, how hard it is to convince people that train starts with a ch- sound Er... is that because it doesn't? It does in a lot of dialects. English /r/ is produced with rounded lips, and is often retroflex, and both of these features can change the preceding consonant, particularly if it's the alveolar /t/ and /d/, making them rounded and produced slightly further back in the oral cavity. The "ch sound" (/tʃ/ in IPA) is also rounded, and is produced slightly further back in the oral cavity than /t/. So /tr/ is often identical to /tʃr/. For the same reason, initial /dr/ is /dʒr/.
|
|
|
Post by Dave M on Jun 25, 2008 16:08:52 GMT
I regard my spoken English as fairly standard, albeit with a northern influence to the vowel sounds.
I was surprised when I first read Paul's comment, but - once I'd actually listened - I agree completely: I definitely "begin with" a ch sound, and so does every other English person I've checked with.
If we begin with a "t" sound, by way of experiment, we suddenly sound Irish.
|
|
|
Post by Vadim on Jun 25, 2008 16:28:04 GMT
It's official, I am English! Albeit a bloody Northerner!
|
|
|
Post by Pete on Jun 25, 2008 18:27:55 GMT
Nothing wrong wi't'north 'cept it's cold. And global warming will deal with that problem!
|
|
|
Post by Bertie on Jun 25, 2008 18:34:20 GMT
I regard my spoken English as fairly standard, albeit with a northern influence to the vowel sounds. I was surprised when I first read Paul's comment, but - once I'd actually listened - I agree completely: I definitely "begin with" a ch sound, and so does every other English person I've checked with. If we begin with a "t" sound, by way of experiment, we suddenly sound Irish. I chotally and utterly disagree with this. My accent is RP and I most definitely say Train; Trench; Trowel; Treblinski etc. I am also of Irish decent and the only difference would be in the vowel sound.
|
|
|
Post by Dave M on Jun 25, 2008 19:10:41 GMT
Ah, now Bertie - I don't begin "ch" when I say Trowell or Treblinski! (And I do it less for Trench than for Train!)
It's all about the way the mouth "gets ready" for the word. I'll agree that we never end up having said the "chuh" sound, but we begin with the beginning of "chuh" (which is "ch").
|
|
|
Post by goofy on Jun 25, 2008 19:15:26 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Tone on Jun 25, 2008 20:28:38 GMT
>Particle physics. Not quite a simile for slang English, Tone. (And who said I hadn't heard of it?)<Ah, but have you ever seen one? Tone
|
|
|
Post by Pete on Jun 25, 2008 20:42:59 GMT
That's the trouble with Higgs bosons - blink and you'll miss 'em.
|
|
|
Post by Dave M on Jun 25, 2008 21:02:14 GMT
When have you ever seen slang, Tone? We may hear it, and we may see the written codification of it ...
|
|
|
Post by Tone on Jun 25, 2008 21:03:23 GMT
At least Tone is doing his bit to help find the little buggers! Tone
|
|
|
Post by amanda on Jun 25, 2008 22:30:23 GMT
, but we begin with the beginning of "chuh" (which is "ch"). I'm genuinely bewildered by this; I've repeated train and trowel over and over and can't find a difference. Chr - creates a totally different postioning of the tongue and lips. This is a difficult one to debate over the airwaves!
|
|
|
Post by Paul Doherty on Jun 25, 2008 23:21:39 GMT
That's because you're saying them as individual words, and thinking about it! It will have changed your pronunciation of train. Take a run at it.
I suppose there is a danger that if you really are doing Jolly Phonics every morning (are you a teacher?), it has caused you to sound it unnaturally. Teachers do do that when they are doing Very Clear Speech.
|
|
|
Post by SusanB on Jun 26, 2008 1:34:50 GMT
Yesterday I was very unsure about this, but I am now starting to agree with Paul. Yesterday I didn't think I said chrain, and couldn't make myself say chrain. But today I have "taken a run at it", and I've found a chrain after all.
|
|
|
Post by Verbivore on Jun 26, 2008 4:30:29 GMT
Try as I might, I cannot for the life of me find a "wet" ch at the beginning of my pronunciation of train. I can make it happen - with concentration - but it certainly isn't normal / natural to me. My initial t in train is a dry sound made with a flat tongue-tip on the palate; to get ch I need to curl my tongue and move it backward a tad on the palate, which gives a semi-whistling (hence "wet") sound.
I have tried this experiment with all manner of words beginning with tr, and all those ts are the dry / flat-tongue sound.
I have also tried it in a run of words, and get the same result.
I'm told I don't speak like the average Aussie, but who knows what that means? (Descentwise I'm a quarter each Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and English.)
Perhaps it has something to do with the elocution and enunciation training I did as a (trainee) singer of opera and lieder?
|
|