"The Troubling Final S"

[Dave M]

It's certainly difficult to spot, once you are concentrating on the way you say it - you start to "take control" of your mouth in a different way!

The difference we're talking about can be seen in the shape of the mouth, though, so perhaps it's easier to get others (who DON'T know what you're looking for) to say "train", and watch how they do it.

If you say "ting", for example, you start with a purer "t" sound. Try it, but freeze at the moment you start - now observe where the tip of your tongue is (on the "corner" of the palate, a little way behind the teeth). Importantly, where are your lips? In a rictus grin, pulled sideways!

Now, say "trains are fun!", but again freeze just before you start. The tongue is pushed differently, and - more obviously - the lips are not pulled sideways into the rictus grin, but are pushed forwards into a "pout".

So ... if you get friends to say "trains are fun" (show them it in writing; don't say it yourself!) and then "ting", you can see the difference.

[Vadim]

Jun 26, 2008 6:01:08 GMT Dave M said:

It's certainly difficult to spot, once you are concentrating on the way you say it - you start to "take control" of your mouth in a different way!

The difference we're talking about can be seen in the shape of the mouth, though, so perhaps it's easier to get others (who DON'T know what you're looking for) to say "train", and watch how they do it.

If you say "ting", for example, you start with a purer "t" sound. Try it, but freeze at the moment you start - now observe where the tip of your tongue is (on the "corner" of the palate, a little way behind the teeth). Importantly, where are your lips? In a rictus grin, pulled sideways!

Now, say "trains are fun!", but again freeze just before you start. The tongue is pushed differently, and - more obviously - the lips are not pulled sideways into the rictus grin, but are pushed forwards into a "pout".

So ... if you get friends to say "trains are fun" (show them it in writing; don't say it yourself!) and then "ting", you can see the difference.

Very well put, Dave. I think this gives "us" the exact distinction. When saying "ting", or any similar t-starting word, I start with the "rictus grin", however, saying train, either on its own or in a sentence, I found myself "pouting" (Oh the shame!).

[Twoddle]

When I say the word "train" on its own, it definitely starts with a "tr" sound, but, when I enunciate an entire sentence - "The train is late" - I can hear the "ch", as in "choo", and my tongue's in a different position.

But then I've always liked choo choo trains.

[Barry]

Both sounds are plosives, but have affricated release - that is air is built up behind the tongue, and released so that is hisses (or, rather, puffs with a sudden hissing sound). The tongue is in just slightly different positions (as goofy says, it's slightly further back when the 'ch' sound is produced, whereas the 'tr' sound is definitely an alveolar - the ridge immediately behaind the teeth - release, with a slight retroflex - the toungue is bent back over itself slightly). However, the net effect (particularly, as Paul says, when the words are articulated in a stream) is near-identical.

It's also true that many people (particularly children) don't even make this distinction, and pronounce both consonants in the post-alveolar-release position.

[Bertie]

I find that I make the "ch" sound by pushing my tongue against the roof of my palate; the"t" sound is made by pushing it against my front teeth. I accept that I know nothing of phonetics, but try as I might I am unable to reproduce the 'desired' effect.

[TfS]

I'm with Bertie on this one. The only sounds I can make are separately "chrain" and "train" and even when going for "train" in a meaning, I still hear a difference.

TfS

[Tone]

I think the reason that I don't/can't do the "chrain" thingy is that I've realized (due to copying tapes today of a 5700) that I actually say something more like "turrain" with the inserted (dunno why) "u" very, very short indeed.

Why do I do this? (Help! Am I odd?.)

Just realized that I do it also with "tracks" ("turacks") -- but only when I'm talking about "turrain turacks" and not when I say "tire tracks"!

(Funny old world, innit!)

Tone

[goofy]

They're not identical for me, I have "chrain" and "chain" or in IPA [ʈʂɹʷejn] and [tʃʷejn]. There's a definite rhotic in the first.

[Barry]

I find that I make the "ch" sound by pushing my tongue against the roof of my palate

Yes, you do - (which is different from the postion at the beginning of the 'tr' sound), but note where it's released - not at the sides, but at the front (i.e. the affricated plosive builds behind the flattened tongue, and then escapes at the front of the tongue). The affrication happens a little bit at the top of the mouth, but mostly in the post-alveolar region. It's not where it all starts that matters, but where the release happens.

[Trevor]

Jeepers, this is all getting a big technical.

[Vadim]

Jun 27, 2008 8:11:09 GMT Trevor said:

Jeepers, this is all getting a big technical.

For you and me both, Trevor. I was, and still am, lost on page one!

[Pete]

;D

Jun 27, 2008 9:32:57 GMT Vadim said:

Jun 27, 2008 8:11:09 GMT Trevor said:

Jeepers, this is all getting a big technical.

For you and me both, Trevor. I was, and still am, lost on page one!

Yup, I'll join this club, too. I understand the pronunciation issues (and have been making all sorts of funny noises trying to work out how to say "train"). But I thought fricative was a method of cooking and affricated was what you become when you cross the Straits of Gibraltar heading south!

[Barry]

A (very) brief guide.

Plosive (think 'explosion') consonants are those where a head of pressure is built up and released: p, b, t, d, k, etc.

Fricative (think 'friction') consonants are those where air passes across a surface to make a noise: s, sh, f, v, etc.

Affricated release means a plosive that turns into a fricative - i.e. the air is built up and released but so that it passes over a surface.

The points where release release or friction are caused at:

both lips (bilabial)
lips and teeth (labiodental)
teeth (dental)
the ridge of gum just behind the teeth (alveolar)
just behind that, at the beginning of the hard palate (post-alveolar)
with the tongue curled back on itself against the hard palate (retroflex)
the hard palate (palatal)
at the back of the mouth, just where the nose passage joins (velar)
top of the throat (uvular)
bottom of the throat (pharyngeal)
even further down (glottal)

So, in standard English:
'p' and 'b' are bilabial plosives;
'f' and 'v' are labiodental fricatives;
't' and 'd' are plosives, but can vary between dental, alveolar and post-alveolar (they can even be retroflex);
'th' is a dental fricative;
's' can be an alveolar or post-alveolar fricative;
'k' and 'g' (hard) are velar plosives;

There are other types of consonant, of course, but this may help with the terms being bandied about. Pharyngeals are the sort of noises that are made in Arabic. Consonants are also considered in pairs as 'voiced' or 'unvoiced' - so 'p' is paired with 'b' (everything is in the same position, but 'b' requires the vocal folds to operate).

[TfS]

Thank you, Barry.

I am now equally confused but at a higher level. Probably it would help if one were a dentist.!

TfS

[David]

Hello all.

Jun 27, 2008 11:07:42 GMT Barry said:

Consonants are also considered in pairs as 'voiced' or 'unvoiced' - so 'p' is paired with 'b' (everything is in the same position, but 'b' requires the vocal folds to operate).

So does that explain why 'drain' often comes out as 'jrain'?