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Post by Pete on May 19, 2008 14:21:19 GMT
When I am talking within a team, and I am talking about someone who is there, I tend to use constructions like: "Joe, you said such and such, I think, didn't you?". I might then say mpre generally: "Do you all agree with Joe?"
That way, you get the personal flavour of using first names and remembering each person's contributions, while also being able to use the third person when it is grammatically correct to do so.
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Post by Paul Doherty on May 19, 2008 15:23:58 GMT
Paul: Thanks for moving my post here. I am really excited to see this forum, much cooler and much nicer interface. Thanks, Rajesh. Can you give us a little more of the dialogue? The context in which you use "he said ..." might be quite important. Having worked with both British and American people (I am British), it does seem to me that British people care more about apparent politeness. Americans are likely to be blunter, and that's quite acceptable to them. We Brits tend to be more two-faced -- we don't expect people to like each other more, merely to pretend to!
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Post by Sue M-V on May 19, 2008 23:17:44 GMT
"Joe, you said such and such ..." This strikes me as very British! I do it all the time: use someone's name before "you" and then continue with the "you". In Sweden, they seem rarely to use each other's names, and I am often a bit disconcerted by this. People will say (roughly translated): "Listen, you! Have you heard the latest?" or "You; when shall we meet to discuss ..." or "You; what did Joe say about ...?" To my ears this sounds perfectly awful! I don't know whether it's a reaction to the old fashioned ultra-polite way of referring to someone in the third person while addressing them directly, which was declared obsolete at the beginning of the seventies, I think. They used to say things like: Would the vicar like another biscuit?" when addressing the vicar, or "Shall I fetch grandmother her cocoa?" when addressing her directly, or "Would John like sugar in his coffee?" when addressing John. I'm glad they got rid of that form of address, but they seem to have moved too far in the other direction. (This is all entirely irrelevant, of course, but may help any of you planning to visit the Arctic wastes.) Sue
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Post by TfS on May 20, 2008 7:57:43 GMT
In Sweden, they seem rarely to use each other's names, and I am often a bit disconcerted by this. People will say (roughly translated): "Listen, you! Have you heard the latest?" or "You; when shall we meet to discuss ..." or "You; what did Joe say about ...?" To my ears this sounds perfectly awful! Sue I have become used to this form of address which, after 41 years in Sweden, I suppose is not surprising. I don't know whether it's a reaction to the old fashioned ultra-polite way of referring to someone in the third person while addressing them directly, which was declared obsolete at the beginning of the seventies, I think. They used to say things like: Would the vicar like another biscuit?" when addressing the vicar, or "Shall I fetch grandmother her cocoa?" when addressing her directly, or "Would John like sugar in his coffee?" when addressing John. Sue This form is still used when directly addressing royalty so it's not entirely obsolete yet. "Would the King like sugar in his coffee?" TfS
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Post by Pete on May 20, 2008 10:22:45 GMT
... the old fashioned ultra-polite way of referring to someone in the third person while addressing them directly, which was declared obsolete at the beginning of the seventies, I think. They used to say things like: Would the vicar like another biscuit?" when addressing the vicar, or "Shall I fetch grandmother her cocoa?" when addressing her directly, or "Would John like sugar in his coffee?" when addressing John. We still see it in English, but it has overtones of sarcasm. Hence, "Would Madam like sugar in her tea", when addressing an irritating customer in a restaurant.
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Post by Dave M on May 20, 2008 16:01:48 GMT
Don't you just hate it, though, when someone puts your name into what they're already saying to you, and there's no-one else there?
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Post by Dr Mildr on May 20, 2008 18:49:32 GMT
"Listen, you! Have you heard the latest?" or "You; when shall we meet to discuss ..." or "You; what did Joe say about ...?" To my ears this sounds perfectly awful! 'Well done you' seems to be a popular current phrase. I can't work out why the 'you' is inserted into the perfectly acceptable 'Well done'.
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Post by Paul Doherty on May 20, 2008 19:14:42 GMT
"Go you!"
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Post by Tone on May 20, 2008 20:55:00 GMT
Tone's reaction to (over)use of personal names in conversation is usually, "He's a bloody salesman". Especially when the person speaking to you uses your own name to start every sentence.
Tone
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Post by Sue M-V on May 20, 2008 22:01:24 GMT
'Well done you' seems to be a popular current phrase. I had a friend who used to say this in the seventies! Somehow, with the right tone of voice, this sounds quite personal and warm! Perhaps this is because I associate it with her smiling face. She was incredibly polite and well educated, by the way. Sue
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Post by Gabriel-Ernest on May 23, 2008 12:31:43 GMT
Like those above I also remember my mother asking: “Who’s she, the cat’s mother!”. I always thought it an over re-action to a simple word. Until the day I replied: “I don’t know, is she?” and got whacked for my cheek.
During my various stays in hospital (in the U.K.) I have always detested the tone of voice of the nurses (as if addressing an idiot or child) and the use of the word “we” for you. (“Now, we don’t want to over tire ourselves, do we?” Although this would be an excellent example of a question expecting the answer ‘No’. Which, I think, comes from Latin grammar.) I have a friend who is a sister in the A & E department and when visiting her at work have noticed that this intelligent women does exactly the same thing, which I pointed out to her. She had no idea that she was doing it; I hope I cured her. Does anyone know if this is still current in hospitals? I am lucky enough not to have been in a position to find out for myself for some years.
As for remembering people’s names I too am cursed with a deficit in that department. But not in others, strangely enough. For example; when reaching for an actor’s name I can name a film or play they have been in and even their character’s name, and furthermore bits of notable dialogue or plot. By such roundabout means I hope that the person I am talking to can name them.
G-E.
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Post by Verbivore on May 23, 2008 13:02:14 GMT
[...] Does anyone know if this is still current in hospitals? [...] G-E. No idea if it's still current, as I've managed to avoid hospitals (as a victim patient) for most of my adult life (an exception being a couple of years ago – some of you might recall my little altercation, as a pedestrian, with an errant vehicle). However, I distinctly recall being asked if " we" had " moved our bowels" and getting a clip over the ear * for my, presumably, cheeky response. I was probably in my early teens at the time, and retorted with something smartarsed like " Dunno about you, Nurse, but mine have gone nowhere". Does the plurale majestatis apply to one's inner organs? If Mrs Windsor/Saxe-Coburg-Gotha–Mountbatten refers to "us" moving "our bowels", does that mean she and Phil-the-Greek have a double dunny? * Should be more of it today; it often did no harm and more frequently did a lot of good.
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Post by Barry on May 23, 2008 13:05:43 GMT
G-E.
I think the 'we' is dying out in hospitals (as it were!); recent appointments I've had (and a stay a few years ago) seemed (if my memory is correct) relatively free from goo-goo communication. The splendid commedian/doctor Phil Hammond maintains that the medical profession's favourite verb is 'pop' ('just pop yourself onto the couch'; 'just pop your shirt off for me', etc.), which, alas, falls into the same form of address.
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Post by Sue M-V on May 23, 2008 18:24:31 GMT
On the subject of pointing, which we were a little while ago, before we digressed, I wonder how usual it is for people to point with their little finger, as opposed to the index finger.
I catch myself doing this, and I'm not entirely sure why - perhaps because I'm often pointing at a word in a text, and my index finger seems a bit big for the job! But I've found I do it quite a lot, even when an index finger would be fine. I thought I was more or less alone in this peculiar behaviour until this week, when I have been to two lectures, one given by an Austrian and the other by a German, both of whom pointed almost exclusively with their little fingers.
Is it perhaps a Germanic trait, or do lots of people do this? It seems a trifle affected, which is why I've been attempting to stop doing it, and seemed even more so when these two men did it.
Is this something that any of you have noticed, or even do yourselves?
Sue
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Post by SusanB on May 23, 2008 19:08:55 GMT
Sue, I haven't thought much about the little finger before. But I did recognise my own behaviour from your description! I certainly don't always do it, but I'm sure I do sometimes. I have just tried an unscientific experiment on myself. I found that I had more contol over movement when pointing with a small finger, than with a large finger (I was placing my weight on the index finger, but carrying the weight more in my hand when pointing with the little finger. But it may just be me!) I quite like your phrase "a trifle affected"! Susan.
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