Tenses

[Vadim]

Re: How large is your long thing?
« Reply #23 Yesterday at 8:45pm »
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Vadim:
Quote:I must always use 3rd person past tense

"He (or they) designed it"? Or did you mean the passive voice: "It was designed"?

I've started a new thread as Paul has locked the one in the quick questions section. This is just a cry out from me as I'm lost, stuck, and without-a-clue, as to how all the tense things work. I could probably just run off and do some research but I thought I'd give you all a go as you all explain yourselves very well.

I meant "it was designed". Can someone point me in the direction of, or explain to me the tenses etc.

Oh, and Pete, I'd of thought I'd of learned this by now!!! (~sorry )

[Barry]

Vadim,

This could run and run!

English has some very complicated tenses that we occasionally try to squeeze into a Latin model - with varying success. There are a lot of grey areas, too, as we often, colloquially, use e.g. present tense in a future or past sense. I'll add a couple for starters, using simple descriptors (rather than posh official names) as much as possible, and more advanced grammarians can add on.

Present tense
Normally used to describe something that is happening in the present (i.e. now) - at least, from the viewpoint of the narrator. Simple present might be "I talk", but there's also a present continuous ("I am talking").

Past tense
This comes in lots of flavours too. Past continuous (or 'imperfect' as some call it) "I was talking", and past simple (or perfect) "I talked". To take us further back in time, we use a pluperfect: "I had talked".

Future tense
Describes events in the future, and again, comes in several flavours. "I will talk" would be simple future, and "I will be talking" would be future continuous.

Active and passive
These are a layer on top of the tenses above. Active verbs take a direct subject: "I talk", "She will talk", "They talked" etc. Passive verbs take no direct subject, and we often use them to give a sense of the impersonal: "It is talked (about)" - there's an object here ('it'), but nobody knows who is doing the talking. Both passives and actives can be past, present, or future.

We often use the passive voice in writing - particularly when writing 'official' stuff (I expect you use it a lot in your thesis). It's considered 'bad form' to be too active in academic writing - you probably wouldn't write "I carried out an experiment"; you'd be more likely to write "an experiement was carried out". The Plain English Campaign encourages those writing for public consumption to use the active voice, as it's easier to understand (and takes a more responsible, active position):

"Your rubbish will be collected on Tuesday" (passive)
"We will collect your rubbish on Tuesday" (active).

[Geoff]

Barry,

Although I haven't yet read your offering, the headings seem to suggest you've covered what I was preparing while you posted. I'll post anyway because another version of the ideas might help Vadim.

Vadim,

Perhaps you need to distinguish between the tense of a verb and what is meant by the voice of a verb.

In the thread How large is your long thing? you said:

The only problem with this, Paul, is that I am not permitted to write in the 1st person. I must always use 3rd person past tense (unless I'm writing the acknowledgments). I do however, see what point you ware making.

to which Twoddle responded:

"He (or they) designed it"? Or did you mean the passive voice: "It was designed"?

Your saying 'I must always use 3rd person past tense ...' leaves me thinking, like Twoddle, that you're confusing tense and voice.

Tense
Tense indicates the time of the action or state expressed by a verb.

Every verb has three principal parts which are used for the formation of tenses. ... The principal parts of a verb are the present. past, past participle. (A fourth principle part, the present participle, is sometimes also given.)

talk = present tense
talked = past tense
talked = past participle
talking = present participle (formed by adding -ing to the present tense form of a verb)

Voice
Transitive verbs (those which take a direct object) are classified as to voice - active or passive.

A verb is in the active voice when its subject performs the action; for example:

We built a large house at the beach.
The engineers have developed new types of electrical refrigerators.

A verb is in the passive voice when its subject receives the action. Note that some form of the verb be (am, is, are, was, were, been, be) is used with another verb in the passive voice; for example:

A large house was built at the beach.
A new type of electrical refrigerator was developed by the engineers.

I hope that hasn't added to your confusion, but I think you need to get the ideas of tense and voice clear in your head.

Barry, you didn't happen to use the same grammar book as I did, did you? You've used the same verb, talk, as an example as I did.

[Twoddle]

Just to simplify things (not), there are also three moods - indicative, imperative and subjunctive. Someone else can describe those (or I'll make a hash of it), but I've mentioned them because the subjunctive mood is often coupled with yet another tense - the conditional. Who wants to explain that lot?

[Vadim]

Keep it coming chaps! I feel like I'm on a distance learning course, where some of the things I'm taught actually makes sense! ;D

[goofy]

Jul 21, 2008 9:48:05 GMT Barry said:

Active and passive
These are a layer on top of the tenses above. Active verbs take a direct subject: "I talk", "She will talk", "They talked" etc. Passive verbs take no direct subject, and we often use them to give a sense of the impersonal: "It is talked (about)" - there's an object here ('it'), but nobody knows who is doing the talking. Both passives and actives can be past, present, or future.

To be more precise, the passive voice is formed by a form of be plus the past participle. Passive sentences have subjects just like active sentences have subjects. In it is talked about, it is the subject, not the object.

In a passive sentence, the subject of its active counterpart is moved into a prepositional phrase beginning with by.

active: the dog bit me.
passive: I was bitten (by the dog).

Some passive sentences have no active counterparts, for instance "He was rumoured to be a time traveler."


About the subjunctive, there are four forms that are commonly called the subjunctive in English.

1. the frozen subjunctive, which exists in set phrases like "God save the queen" and "be that as it may". 

2. the uninflected form used in dependent clauses (called the "mandative subjunctive") often after verbs like ask, demand, recommend, suggest, insist, be advisable, be necessary.
I insist that you be quiet. 
I demand that this cease. 

3. the inverted had and were used in counterfactual clauses:
Had I known this yesterday, I would have done something. 
Were I going to Paris, I would learn French. 

4. the were form (called the past subjunctive) used with first and third person singular in counterfactual clauses:
If I were in Paris, I would learn French. 
I wish she weren't going away. 

The were form is descended from the Old English past subjunctive, and that's presumably why we call it the past subjunctive, even tho it has nothing to do with past time. It's also called the irrealis.

Both was and were have been used interchangeably in writing for 300 years in counterfactual sentences like I felt as if I was invisible or If I was in Paris, I would learn French. The only places where were still survives robustly is if I were you and as it were.

[Twoddle]

The imperative mood is the easiest: "Speak!", "Sit!", "Come!" etc. It's normally used in the second person (singular or plural); correct me if I'm wrong, someone, but can't it also be used in other persons, such the first person plural - "Let's go!"?

The indicative mood is what's left if one isn't using the subjunctive and imperative moods; that's to say it's the mood we use nearly all the time - normal speech, one might say.

[Dr Mildr]

Jul 21, 2008 18:23:30 GMT Twoddle said:

Lets go!.

Your turn for the sack-cloth, Twod.

[Twoddle]

Jul 21, 2008 18:31:16 GMT Dr Mildr said:

Jul 21, 2008 18:23:30 GMT Twoddle said:

Lets go!.

Your turn for the sack-cloth, Twod.

I could have (of) sworn I typed an apostrophe there! Well, now I have. ;D

[Paul Doherty]

Some good websites:
www.learnenglish.de/grammar/tensetext.htm
www.englishpage.com/verbpage/verbtenseintro.html

[Geoff]

Wow! English verbs in five minutes.

Given what I believe is the reason for Vadim's starting this thread, I think bringing mood into the mix is just a complication. Even I'm a bit overwhelmed. Perhaps Vadim could let us know where he stands with what has been offered so far.

[Vadim]

Jul 21, 2008 18:57:17 GMT Twoddle said:

Jul 21, 2008 18:31:16 GMT Dr Mildr said:

Your turn for the sack-cloth, Twod.

I could have (of) sworn I typed an apostrophe there! Well, now I have. ;D

Is that a hint for me to pass the cloth over? Is it finally time to relinquish it from my dying hand?

[Vadim]

Jul 21, 2008 22:31:54 GMT Geoff said:

Wow! English verbs in five minutes.

Given what I believe is the reason for Vadim's starting this thread, I think bringing mood into the mix is just a complication. Even I'm a bit overwhelmed. Perhaps Vadim could let us know where he stands with what has been offered so far.

To be honest, Geoff, I'm probably more confused than when I started. I will not however, learn anything by merely avoiding the subject. All the posts so far have been extremely well written and very clear, I just don't think I can take everything in at once and put it all together. One additional thing I would be interested in however, is linking the tense to the person, 3rd person past tense, for instance. This probably makes no sense at all, but that's one I'm sure I've heard.

Maybe a full understanding is not what I require, I do try to learn too much sometimes, but the outlines here have been very welcome. Thanks chaps.

[Geoff]

Vadim,

One additional thing I would be interested in however, is linking the tense to the person, 3rd person past tense, for instance.

When you conjugate (give the various forms of) a verb, there are, for any of the various tenses, two additional aspects to consider, person and number.

Person
There are three persons: first, second, and third. The first person concerns yourself, the second your audience, and the third something other than you or your audience.

Number
Number is concerned with whether the subject of the verb is singular or plural. Singular indicates one entity, and plural indicates two or more entities.

The six possible combinations are illustrated below:

Singular
First person = I
Second person = You
Third person = He, She, It


Plural
First person = We
Second person = You (a group)
Third person = They

It is important in any sentence that the verb agrees with the number of its subject, referred to, obviously, as 'verb and number agreement'.

So, for the verb to drive, the present tense would conjugate as:

I drive = First person singular
You drive = Second person singular
He (she, it) drives = Third person singular
We drive = First person plural
You drive = Second person plural
They drive = Third person plural

and, again, for the verb to drive, the past tense would conjugate as:

I drove = First person singular
You drove = Second person singular
He (she, it) drove = Third person singular
We drove = First person plural
You drove = Second person plural
They drove = Third person plural

I hope that's some help.

[Dave M]

Goofy

While I agree with most of what you said on the subjunctive, I'm intrigued at type number 4, "the were form": surley the same form is in use with (all?) other verbs:

If I drove a Jag, I'd have to pay more in tax and fuel.
If I could swim, I'd do so right now.
If I ate twenty-seven burgers, I'd be ill ...