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Tenses
Jul 24, 2008 18:08:34 GMT
Post by goofy on Jul 24, 2008 18:08:34 GMT
You can use whether or if to introduce a noun clause after wonder, see, ask, doubt. I wouldn't say you should use whether, but it is more formal. You can find some examples that are ambiguous with if, like let her know if she is invited.
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Tenses
Jul 24, 2008 18:22:39 GMT
Post by Twoddle on Jul 24, 2008 18:22:39 GMT
You can use whether or if to introduce a noun clause after wonder, see, ask, doubt. I wouldn't say you should use whether, but it is more formal. You can find some examples that are ambiguous with if, like let her know if she is invited.I know that many (or most) people do use "if" instead of "whether", but I'd be interested to learn the justification for it being equally acceptable.
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Tenses
Jul 24, 2008 18:45:53 GMT
Post by goofy on Jul 24, 2008 18:45:53 GMT
I know that many (or most) people do use "if" instead of "whether", but I'd be interested to learn the justification for it being equally acceptable. Well, if most people use it, how can it not be acceptable? Anyway, here are some quotes: AHD: "In informal writing both if and whether are standard in their use to introduce a clause indicating uncertainty after a verb such as ask, doubt, know, learn, or see: We shall soon learn whether (or if) it is true. In such contexts, however, the use of if can sometimes create ambiguities. Depending on the intended meaning, the sentence Let her know if she is invited might be better paraphrased as Let her know whether she is invited or If she is invited, let her know." MWDEU: "...this use of if has never actually been restricted; the whole question of its propriety is factitious. Yet the notion that whether and not if should be used to introduce such a clause is still at large..." With many examples Jan Freeman: "Garner says that 'Let me know if you'll be coming' means 'respond only if you are coming.' I hope he doesn't run his social life on that basis."
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Tenses
Jul 24, 2008 21:25:58 GMT
Post by Twoddle on Jul 24, 2008 21:25:58 GMT
I know that many (or most) people do use "if" instead of "whether", but I'd be interested to learn the justification for it being equally acceptable. Well, if most people use it, how can it not be acceptable? Anyway, here are some quotes: AHD: "In informal writing both if and whether are standard in their use to introduce a clause indicating uncertainty after a verb such as ask, doubt, know, learn, or see: We shall soon learn whether (or if) it is true. In such contexts, however, the use of if can sometimes create ambiguities. Depending on the intended meaning, the sentence Let her know if she is invited might be better paraphrased as Let her know whether she is invited or If she is invited, let her know." MWDEU: "...this use of if has never actually been restricted; the whole question of its propriety is factitious. Yet the notion that whether and not if should be used to introduce such a clause is still at large..." With many examples Jan Freeman: "Garner says that 'Let me know if you'll be coming' means 'respond only if you are coming.' I hope he doesn't run his social life on that basis." OK, I'll accept that. "If" is an acceptable but inferior alternative to "whether", at least in the States. As two of the quotations suggest, "whether" can help eliminate ambiguity. Bear in mind also that I speak British English, not the English of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Merriam-Webster, or the Boston Globe, and I'd suggest that you, in Canada (not the USA), should perhaps not be quoting from American sources either. As to "Well, if most people use it, how can it not be acceptable?", that's a point that Paul and I have disagreed upon many a time. I take the opposite view: "Just because the ignorant masses don't understand their own language, why does that make their linguistic errors correct?"
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Tenses
Jul 24, 2008 22:18:09 GMT
Post by Trevor on Jul 24, 2008 22:18:09 GMT
While we're on tenses, I smiled when a friend said to me in an email yesterday:
"I would have liked to have had coffee with you".
I commented that it all sounded a bit past tense (would he not still like to have coffee with me?) but in fact I now wonder whether it's a pretty complex sentence. Is it? Anyone care to have a stab at analysing it?
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Tenses
Jul 24, 2008 22:26:41 GMT
Post by Twoddle on Jul 24, 2008 22:26:41 GMT
While we're on tenses, I smiled when a friend said to me in an email yesterday: "I would have liked to have had coffee with you". I commented that it all sounded a bit past tense (would he not still like to have coffee with me?) but in fact I now wonder whether it's a pretty complex sentence. Is it? Anyone care to have a stab at analysing it? It sounds past tense to me, too, Trevor. To me it means, "At some time in the past, I would have enjoyed meeting you for coffee". What was it supposed to have meant?
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Tenses
Jul 24, 2008 22:28:53 GMT
Post by goofy on Jul 24, 2008 22:28:53 GMT
OK, I'll accept that. "If" is an acceptable but inferior alternative to "whether", at least in the States. As two of the quotations suggest, "whether" can help eliminate ambiguity. Bear in mind also that I speak British English, not the English of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Merriam-Webster, or the Boston Globe, and I'd suggest that you, in Canada (not the USA), should perhaps not be quoting from American sources either. The MWDEU considers British usage as well as American usage. This specific construction does not differ between the US and the UK. I can't image that it's different in Canada. The thing about eliminating ambiguity is that potential ambiguity is everywhere in language. The question is, how likely is it that your potentially ambiguous sentence will be actually ambiguous? Ask Oxford: "Whether and if are more or less interchangeable in sentences such as I’ll see whether he left an address and I’ll see if he left an address, although whether is more formal and more suitable for written use." As to "Well, if most people use it, how can it not be acceptable?", that's a point that Paul and I have disagreed upon many a time. I take the opposite view: "Just because the ignorant masses don't understand their own language, why does that make their linguistic errors correct?" I have a very different definition of "understand" than you do.
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Tenses
Jul 24, 2008 22:31:25 GMT
Post by Twoddle on Jul 24, 2008 22:31:25 GMT
I have a very different definition of "understand" than you do. We agree!
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Tenses
Jul 24, 2008 22:39:40 GMT
Post by Paul Doherty on Jul 24, 2008 22:39:40 GMT
I have a very different definition of "understand" than you do. Another interesting phrase; it illustrates well why "rules" such as " different from not different to or different than" have to be treated with care!
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Tenses
Jul 25, 2008 7:36:12 GMT
Post by Vadim on Jul 25, 2008 7:36:12 GMT
I hope Vadim is following all this! I'm just about keeping up, Paul. I will no doubt read this for many months to come, and consult the very helpful references, to scrub-up and improve my understanding of the language. I know Goofy, Dave and Twod have run off a bit with the thread, however I find their "discussions" very informative and highly entertaining. In another thread, Pete commented on Gooy's contributions to the board - I think they are excellent. I know he is one for the use of references, and for this I thank Goofy, as it keeps me informed and interested in the topic of language. You have all taught me more in 3 months, than I learned (I keep getting this in spell checker - is learnt not a word?) in 5 years. Thank you all.
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Tenses
Jul 25, 2008 7:43:41 GMT
Post by Paul Doherty on Jul 25, 2008 7:43:41 GMT
I'm just about keeping up Paul. More than I am!
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Tenses
Jul 25, 2008 9:51:42 GMT
Post by Dave M on Jul 25, 2008 9:51:42 GMT
goofy I agree that "if" is often used in the same role as "whether" (and would merely say that "whether" carries the meaning better).
That wasn't my point in calling for a clearer example, though. When if means "in the circumstance that", it introduces a condition, and when it means "whether", it doesn't (you can't say "the light comes on WHETHER the power is on AND the switch is closed").
When we're looking at the subtle differences between the tenses and the factuality of the circumstance, I feel it's best to lay out equivalent sentences, rather than jump suddenly to a different pattern.
The "jump" is still present in your revised examples: present possible condition: I wonder if is possible. past possible condition: I wondered if it was possible. present counterfactual condition: If it was/were possible, I would travel back in time. past counterfactual condition: If it had been possible, I would have traveled back in time.
The jump seems also to confuse where the meaning attaches: in the present possible, both verbs are present, and in the past possible both verbs are past. This doesn't help the reeader understand which it is that's being counted: I wonder whether it was possible is a present tense sentence (I wonder), with the origin of what I'm wondering lying in the past. Too confusing!
I'd lay out examples as: present possible condition: If he has a licence, he is (or will be) insured to drive my car past possible condition: If he had a licence, he was insured to drive my car present counterfactual condition: If he had a licence, he would be insured to drive my car. past counterfactual condition: If he had had a licence, he would have been insured to drive my car.
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Tenses
Jul 25, 2008 10:08:44 GMT
Post by Twoddle on Jul 25, 2008 10:08:44 GMT
Vadim,
"Learnt" is an alternative, and equally acceptable, spelling of "learned", but tends to be used more in British-English than American-English. If your spellchecker doesn't like it, it could be because it's an American-English spellchecker, or because it's an American spellchecker that thinks it knows British-English but hasn't quite got the hang of it. There are other devices and publications that do that - think they know British (or Australian) English, but don't really - and I suspect that Merriam-Webster is one of them.
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David
New Member
Posts: 16
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Tenses
Jul 25, 2008 12:05:45 GMT
Post by David on Jul 25, 2008 12:05:45 GMT
I've been observing this discussion from the sidelines, with much interest. If he had a licence, he was insured to drive my car To my ears the two halves of this sentence don't go together. Can you give me a context in which you'd use it? "If he had a licence..." sounds to me like simple past used to express present uncertainty, to be followed by "...he would be insured to drive my car". On the other hand "...he was insured to drive my car" expresses past certainty. There's no "if" about it, so the whole sentence could be "Because he had a licence, he was insured to drive my car". Clear as mud? Thanks (whoever it was) for the karma. Am I insured to drive it?
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Tenses
Jul 25, 2008 12:14:06 GMT
Post by Verbivore on Jul 25, 2008 12:14:06 GMT
[...] Thanks (whoever it was) for the karma. Am I insured to drive it? As long as you don't use it to run over my dogma.
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